Who hardened Pharaoh's heart?

Originally posted by Nemesio
That's a little different than sending Jesus on
a suicide mission for the expiation of the world's sins.

Nemesio

Firmly, yet still, merely scratching the surface.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Firmly, yet still, merely scratching the surface.

My statement is entirely accurate from orthodox Protestant
doctrine: Jesus came, sent from God, to die for the sins of
the world.

I'm not trying to do a doctoral thesis on the topic, so it's no
surprise that I'm only scratching the surface.

Regardless of that, it certainly does seem evil to hard Pharaoh's
heart such that babies get murdered for no good reason.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Regardless of that, it certainly does seem evil to hard Pharaoh's
heart such that babies get murdered for no good reason.

No good reason? Why, they were extras in one of the biggest drama productions ever--underwritten by none other than the Great Director. That should be reason enough!

Originally posted by Nemesio
My statement is entirely accurate from orthodox Protestant
doctrine: Jesus came, sent from God, to die for the sins of
the world.
Nemesio

That part was not in contention, I edited the post down to the last sentence for brevity, so please overlook my mistake.
The surface remark was intended for your take on the issues involved in the intial Exodous from Egypt, relative to Pharoh's hardened heart.
The hardening took place because of the opportuntities given, not specific acts of God on Pharoh's emotions.
If what you are contending with the superficial rendering of Scripture were true, who could argue with God? By your account, Satan is good and God is evil. Blasphemous.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
That part was not in contention, I edited the post down to the last sentence for brevity, so please overlook my mistake.
The surface remark was intended for your take on the issues involved in the intial Exodous from Egypt, relative to Pharoh's hardened heart.
The hardening took place because of the opportuntities given, not specific acts of God on Phar ...[text shortened]... e true, who could argue with God? By your account, Satan is good and God is evil. Blasphemous.

Well, do you believe God is omnipotent?

If you do, then you recongize that God could have done a number of things
in order to render the same or even better possibilities. That is, God could
have made it such that the Jews were let go after 5 plagues. Or He could
have made the 10th plaque less severe. Or any of an infinitude of things
that didn't entail the slaughter of innocents.

In any event, I don't believe the stories as literal anyway, much less that
a God of love would murder children. My question was rhetorical.

Originally posted by KnightWulfe
[b]Coletti
Originally posted by Coletti
Seems so obvious, doesn't it? I agree - sometimes Pharoah, sometimes God.

Originally posted by KnightWulfe
So if God did it, then God was the cause of action against his own people simply to cause suffering to his "enemy." If he was truly benevolent, then would he not have allowed the Ph ...[text shortened]... NTED to inflict the plagues upon the people of Eqypt. How benevolent is that?


Any thoughts?[/b]

You want thoughts? Old testament God was a bit of a megalomaniac. All that smiting and turning into pillars of salt and plaguing. I mean, very impressive, but he really turned over a new leaf when he became a father, no?

Originally posted by Nemesio
Well, do you believe God is omnipotent?


If you do, then you recongize that God could have done a number of things
in order to render the same or even better possibilities. That is, God could
have made it such that the Jews were let go after 5 plagues. Or He could
have made the 10th plaque less severe. Or any of an infinitude of things
that didn' ...[text shortened]... iteral anyway, much less that
a God of love would murder children. My question was rhetorical.

While God is omnipotent, He has made every man a creature of free will.

If you don't believe the stories are literal, how do you explain the Jews' use of the same to explain their origins as a nation?

Where did those "murdered" children end up?

God gives life, God takes it away. Blessed be the name of the LORD.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
That part was not in contention, I edited the post down to the last sentence for brevity, so please overlook my mistake.
The surface remark was intended for your take on the issues involved in the intial Exodous from Egypt, relative to Pharoh's hardened heart.
The hardening took place because of the opportuntities given, not specific acts of God on Phar ...[text shortened]... e true, who could argue with God? By your account, Satan is good and God is evil. Blasphemous.

God created everything, Satan included. It is by his Word that everything, including Satan, was created. God creates everything with full knowledge of what it'll do, Satan / Lucifer included. God is not part of everything, by the definition of Christianity, God IS everything. Satan included. There is no Good and Evil, only different points of view, both of which God created and continues to allow to exist.

Originally posted by joelek
So in your opinion, Pharaoh didn't decide to not let the people go? He wanted to let them go, but something compelled him to do otherwise?

I have no idea about what took place back then except from what I read in the Bible, which is not (to me) the most reliable source. I suppose Pharaoh in reality probably decided to not let the people go.

However Genesis says God caused Pharoah to decide not to let the people go. If God makes Pharoah decide something, did Pharoah decide it? That's a question of semantics. However you want to call it, God held responsability for Pharoah not letting these people go because he "hardened Pharoah's heart".

Originally posted by scottishinnz
You want thoughts? Old testament God was a bit of a megalomaniac. All that smiting and turning into pillars of salt and plaguing. I mean, very impressive, but he really turned over a new leaf when he became a father, no?

No, he had his son tortured and killed.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
If you don't believe the stories are literal, how do you explain the Jews' use of the same to explain their origins as a nation?

I don't have to explain it because they don't. There is no agreement among
the Jews about the historicity of any of the Torah. Some can believe it entirely literal
and some can view it wholesale metaphor and they are still Jews. They are defined
by their tradition, metaphor or historical nonewithstanding.

That is, one Jew can sit in the pew and say 'Creation is a literal account' and the guy
next to him can say 'Creation is entirely a metaphor' and they will both clasp each other
and call each other sons of Abraham.

God gives life, God takes it away. Blessed be the name of the LORD.

This must be very comforting to you. That is, God commands us to obey 'thou shalt
not murder' but breaks the Commandment Himself, but this doesn't cause any turbulance
in your head.

Nemesio

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
No, he had his son tortured and killed.

Well, there is that it suppose, but the rest of us got off a bit easier.

Except the plague, and the Dark Ages, and Hitler / Stalin. Oh, and he's really starting to crank it up with the global warming. Do you think that New Orleans is the new Sodom (or Gomorrah) perhaps?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
God created everything, Satan included. It is by his Word that everything, including Satan, was created. God creates everything with full knowledge of what it'll do, Satan / Lucifer included. God is not part of everything, by the definition of Christianity, God IS everything. Satan included. There is no Good and Evil, only different points of view, both of which God created and continues to allow to exist.

God is not part of everything, by the definition of Christianity, God IS everything. Satan included.

As I am too lazy for a lengthy retype, perhaps you should read through the following thread, where your statements are argued from a slightly different angle:

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=29922&page=1

And no, Christianity is not a pantheistic religion.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
However Genesis says God caused Pharoah to decide not to let the people go. If God makes Pharoah decide something, did Pharoah decide it? That's a question of semantics. However you want to call it, God held responsability for Pharoah not letting these people go because he "hardened Pharoah's heart".

First of all, Genesis makes no mention of the exodus story (thus the book, Exodus).

Secondly, your response is very typical on here, just as typical as flawed. You (and many others) make the argument that God holds responsibility because he hardened Pharaoh's heart. I could just as easily make the argument that Pharaoh holds responsibility because he hardened his heart.

This is a totally predictable human (typically unbelieving) interpretation. Man always wants to point the blame on God, saying God is responsible instead of he himself. Well, actually, man wants to place the blame on anyone other than himself.

The simple fact is that we live our lives (or are supposed to) according to what is known to us. We are supposed to act as God would have us to act -- His revealed will. Pharaoh had every responsibility to act rightly.

You're focusing on God's hidden will, which really is not supposed to be your focus. His hidden will is for Him, not us, to worry about. And when we start worrying about it, we come to almost all of the false conclusions that have been reached on here, somehow blaming God for mankind's wrongdoing.

Originally posted by Coletti
God had his own "first born son" put to death.

So that is your justification for the killing of thousands of innocents?

I could have my son put to death and then be justified in killing the first born of everyone in the city in which I live?

It is an vile, deliberate violation of "Thou Shalt Not Kill." - There is no addendum to the Commandment - It doesnt say "Thou Shalt Not Kill, unless you sacrfice your own son first."