Who made God?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Who made Muffy?

Was is Huffy or Puffy?

Edit: It seems you don't waste your time when it comes to backsliding. 😉

Of course, dj2. That's always the problem with these "beginningless beginners."

Backsliding: It's okay. I've Arby Hilled it (i.e., I ask for forgiveness for the sins I am about to commit) and my hart iz cleen agan!

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Why does one have to believe either? Why can't one just suspend judgment?

If you suspend your judgement for too long, you will end be being a mental couch potato. 😉

Originally posted by telerion
Of course, dj2. That's always the problem with these "beginningless beginners."

Backsliding: It's okay. I've Arby Hilled it (i.e., I ask for forgiveness for the sins I am about to commit) and my hart iz cleen agan!

Hebrews 10: 26,27

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

I have nothing left to say to you. But I shall continue to pray for you.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Hebrews 10: 26,27

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

I have nothing left to say to you. But I shall continue to pray for you.

You must be perfect then.

(awaiting your 'interpretation' of the passage that gets you (sinner) of the hook and me (sinner) not)

Originally posted by telerion
You must be perfect then.

(awaiting your 'interpretation' of the passage that gets you (sinner) of the hook and me (sinner) not)

1 Corinthians 3:10

"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."

I can testify that God is faithful to his promise. God has changed my heart so that I do not want to sin. Therefore I do not sin deliberately. There is a huge difference between deliberate and unintentional sin.

As I continue to strive for holiness, I realise that it is only possible by the grace of God.

If you have any doubts I have a standing open invitation for you to visit me and live together with me and my family for as long as you please.

(I have no idea of your background and to what type of Christianity you were exposed to. As you seem to be out to mock all believers, I gather you must have really had a cheap version, which sheds a lot of light on your current attitude towards Christians in general. I challenge you to come and see for yourself that some Christians do actually have a living faith, which changes lives for good.)

Originally posted by dj2becker
If you suspend your judgement for too long, you will end be being a mental couch potato. 😉

Suspending judgement because you don't have enough evidence either way doesn't have anything to do with being a mental couch potato. It's a lot more couch-potato-ish to make a judgement based on little evidence and stop questioning it.

Originally posted by 667joe
To Quote George Carlin, " Jesus was a Cross Dresser," and referring to the world,"If this is the best God can do, I'm not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of stuff you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. In any well-managed universe, this guy would have been out on his all powerful ass a long time ago"

What if this is not the best that God can do?

What if the decisions of creatures with free will, such as man, has hindered God from the best that He can do?

We see that Adam sold out his deputy authority over the creation to an opposition party. The earth came under a curse and decay and death came into the world, not to mention sin. This was due to the poor choice of the first man under whom God placed His creation which He deemed "very good."

After Adam makes a mess of the creation by reliquishing authority to Satan, are we then to blame God with "Is this the best that you can do?"

At any rate I see in the Bible history moving in the direction to a total salvation of the rebellious man and his environment. "A new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

Biblically, you are misaming your blame. And biblically, you fail to recognize that God is directing history to a destination of salvation from the degradation brought in by Adam's poor use of his free will.

In fact rather than chide God "Is this the best you can do?" I would rather be thankful that He is restraining the world from going totally beserk under the circumstances.

Did you ever wonder why things are not much worse than they are? At least your conscience has been somewhat of a break system keeping you from being completely evil.

You could be thankful that the Creator gave you some internal breaks to prevent you from carrying out everything which is in your sinful imagination.

Originally posted by dj2becker
1 Corinthians 3:10

"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."

I can testify that God is faithful to his promise. God has changed my heart so that I do not [b]want[/ ...[text shortened]... rself that some Christians do actually have a living faith, which changes lives for good.)[/b]

I am certainly not out to mock all believers. If you met me outside of RHP you'd have no clue that I am an atheist. You must realize that my there are endogenous effects occuring. Your behavior elicits my own. You come hear plagerizing and preaching, and being the smarta$$ (know-it-all) that I am, I respond.

Outside of this forum, I give little thought to religious matters. Thank you for the inviting me into your home though. I'm sure you have a nice family.

Originally posted by Nordlys
Suspending judgement because you don't have enough evidence either way doesn't have anything to do with being a mental couch potato. It's a lot more couch-potato-ish to make a judgement based on little evidence and stop questioning it.

A mind that questions everything, unless strong enough to bear the weight of its ignorance, risks questioning itself and being engulfed in doubt. If it cannot discover the claims to existence of the objects of its questioning -- and it would be miraculous if it so soon succeeded in solving so many mysteries -- it will deny them all reality, the mere formulation of the problem already implying an inclination to negative solutions. But in so doing it will become void of all positive content and, finding nothing which offers it resistance, will launch itself perforce into the emptiness of inner revere.

-Durkheim, Emile

dj, I'm back!... with, regrettably, very little progress on the bible. But it suddenly occurred to me, assuming if it is indeed true that all of us and everything around us were created/designed by God; and that God himself was not created by anything, then it follows that God must also be the one who created Satan? I think this should be a reasonable deduction?

I'm just wondering... that if I were God, wouldn't it be much easier not to create Satan? Then all of us won't be corrupted? Then nothing would have tempted Eve in the first place? And we would never have to suffer the 'sins' by our ancestors (Adam & Eve)? We'd still all be in Paradise up to now?

On the other hand, if God created Satan in order to 'test' our loyalty, then I would question why? Why would he want to test us? He puts the apple tree there and then tells Adam and Eve not to eat the fruits. He then allows all the opportunities for Satan to seduce Eve. And having been seduced, Adam and Eve were banished from Paradise! Why? Worse, we have to pay for the sin up to now! It is what we call entrapment. I'm sure God knew very well that we would have failed the 'test'. Is he playing with us? Just the same way a cat would play with the mouse it caught?

You are just making excuses. You,d be fired for making such excuses to your boss if you did such a half assed job!

Originally posted by ckoh1965
dj, I'm back!... with, regrettably, very little progress on the bible. But it suddenly occurred to me, assuming if it is indeed true that all of us and everything around us were created/designed by God; and that God himself was not created by anything, then it follows that God must also be the one who created Satan? I think this should be a reasonable deduc ...[text shortened]... Is he playing with us? Just the same way a cat would play with the mouse it caught?

Those are very good questions. I am just very busy at the moment, but I have the answers for you, and will give them to you as soon as I get the chance. Hang in there.

Originally posted by Nordlys
Suspending judgement because you don't have enough evidence either way doesn't have anything to do with being a mental couch potato. It's a lot more couch-potato-ish to make a judgement based on little evidence and stop questioning it.

So are you a hard-boiled agnostic or a soft-boiled agnostic?

Originally posted by ckoh1965
dj, I'm back!... with, regrettably, very little progress on the bible. But it suddenly occurred to me, assuming if it is indeed true that all of us and everything around us were created/designed by God; and that God himself was not created by anything, then it follows that God must also be the one who created Satan? I think this should be a reasonable deduc ...[text shortened]... Is he playing with us? Just the same way a cat would play with the mouse it caught?

But it suddenly occurred to me, assuming if it is indeed true that all of us and everything around us were created/designed by God; and that God himself was not created by anything, then it follows that God must also be the one who created Satan? I think this should be a reasonable deduction?

True. We do read about this in the Bible. Lucifer (Satan) was one of God's angels that rebelled against God. Rebellion against God did not start in paradise. It started long before that.

On the other hand, if God created Satan in order to 'test' our loyalty, then I would question why? Why would he want to test us? He puts the apple tree there and then tells Adam and Eve not to eat the fruits. He then allows all the opportunities for Satan to seduce Eve. And having been seduced, Adam and Eve were banished from Paradise! Why? Worse, we have to pay for the sin up to now! It is what we call entrapment. I'm sure God knew very well that we would have failed the 'test'. Is he playing with us? Just the same way a cat would play with the mouse it caught?

The original creation was 'very good' (Gen 1:31). There was no sin, no evil, no pain, and death. What brought these things about? Scripture indicates that the turn downward came the moment Adam and Eve used their God-given free will to choose to disobey God. (see Gen 3).

Now you may ask why couldn't God have created humans in such a way that we would never sin, thus avoiding evil altogether. The fact is that such a scenario would mean that we were not truly human. We would not have the capacity to make choices and to freely love. This scenario would require that God create robots who would act only in a programmed ways - like a charity doll whose string you pull and it says, "I love you". With such a doll there would not be any hot words, never any conflict, never anything sad or done that would make you sad! But who would want that? There wouldn't be any love either. Love is voluntary. God could have made us like robots, but we would have ceased to have been men.

Love cannot be programmed; it must be freely expressed. God wanted Adam and all humanity to show love by freely choosing obedience. This is why God gave Adam and all humans a free will. Forced love is rape; and God is not a divine rapist. He will not do anything to coerce our decision.

PS: If you are unclear about anything please let me know. If you have any more questions, I will try my best to get you an answer.

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]But it suddenly occurred to me, assuming if it is indeed true that all of us and everything around us were created/designed by God; and that God himself was not created by anything, then it follows that God must also be the one who created Satan? I think this should be a reasonable deduction?

True. We do read about this in the Bible. Lucifer (Sa ...[text shortened]... et me know. If you have any more questions, I will try my best to get you an answer.[/b]

Fair enough. But if the so-called good angel who turned bad was the problem in the first place, why not remove that problem? Why was that bad angel allowed to be in Paradise to seduce Eve? God should have banished Satan from the very beginning. Instead, he punished those who ate the apples. And if that's not enough, all the descendents are also punished. I have a 4-year old girl. It's extremely difficult for me to believe that such an innocent child has already sinned without her free will. Unless, of course, I have a totally wrong meaning of the words 'free will'.

Listen, dj, if your father murdered somebody, and then got caught and hanged; but the judge's not satisfied, and he punished you too, how would you feel? The judge condemns your entire bloodline to eternal punishment. Everyone in your bloodline should go to prison as soon as they are born. Do you think that this judge is fair? Or do you think he is nuts? Moreover, the judge also released the guy who convinced your father to go on a killing spree. That guy is thus allowed to convince other people to kill. How about that?

No, my 4-year old girl has not done anything wrong, at least not yet! Maybe when she grows up, if I'm so unfortunate, she'll turn bad and kill somebody or something like that. Then I'll accept that she has sinned. But to say she has sinned even now, it's just too hard for me to swallow.