Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Some (including an all time favorite girl friend, Leslie frequently on Dick Clark's American Bandstand, during her family's summer vacations on Cape Cod during my late teens; and my dear wife Evelyn of twenty five years who became a Christian during our two year courtship). I do wish they all were more than you or anyone else here could ever imagine or know.

What proportion, roughly, of those that remain atheists would you say feel they live in self-induced misery?

Originally posted by Rank outsider
I said that atheists accept what theists say they believe, what they say that they feel etc.

I have never heard any atheist say to a theist 'You say you believe in Jesus Christ, but you don't'.

You can insult and deride someone for their beliefs, without questioning that they actually believe it.

I said that atheists accept what theists say they believe, what they say that they feel etc.
I get that you are considering "accept" in the sense of they start there.
If it ended there, I would say the acceptance is without defect.
But more often than not, the conversation takes a turn from that position to the atheist then explaining why the theist is wrong for their belief, how their belief lacks instantiation and so on and so forth.

I have never heard any atheist say to a theist 'You say you believe in Jesus Christ, but you don't'.
Not exactly, but when the belief is derided as foolish and inferior, when they offer logic formulas and flow charts to illustrate the supposed stupidity for the position of belief, I don't know that anyone would think one is worse than the other.

Moreover, I've not heard anyone specifically say that an atheist doesn't really reject God; I have heard folks arguing about what constitutes atheism, with the theists repeatedly correcting the atheists relative to the definition of atheism, but not much else along those lines.

You can insult and deride someone for their beliefs, without questioning that they actually believe it.
Well, atheists typically do the former and then put forth massive effort to paint a picture of intellectual inferiority for those who disagree with their rejection.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
What proportion, roughly, of those that remain atheists would you say feel they live in self-induced misery?

Of the dozens over a lifetime, many I've lost touch with as the labyrinthian pathways of career and relocations engulfed us and displaced the window of frequent contact we once shared. The memory of those who became Christians is still fragrant; and, yes, I still remember many of those who were still wrestling with their objections and frustrations in prayer at odd times of the night or day. One especially articulate and troubled younger man in Massachusetts, Evelyn's oldest son, I learned a year ago had overdosed on a combination of substances. Concerns over the eternal destiny of the souls of several highly intelligent and still doubting site members who have been given accurate gospel information I've placed in God's Hands.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
...accurate gospel information...

With salt, I hope.

Originally posted by HandyAndy
With salt, I hope.

Colossians 4:6 "Let your speech [be] alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." Matthew 5:13-15 "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house." Excellent segue Andy, to an important responsibility principle. Thanks.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"Why Are Atheists So Angry?"

"By Rabbi David Wolpe - Huffington Post Added: Friday, 11 March 2011 at 3:21 AM Thanks to Morgan Zee for the link. How harmless is it to post an article about why people should read the bible on a site devoted to religion? I did on this very page, and it evoked more than 2,000 responses, most of them angry. I had ...[text shortened]... ly acquire the mind of Christ and share the perfect happiness of God. 'Grace' is a foreign word.[/b]

1. Atheists genuinely resent the evil that religion has done.

As your quote said, this is a perfectly valid reason to be angry.

2. They are convinced that religion is a fairy tale made up of whole cloth that impedes science/progress/rational thought.

Again, this is a perfectly valid reason to be angry.

3. Here is where I make my bid for more obloquy to be visited on my head. There is an arrogant unwillingness to engage with religion's serious thinkers.

Religions serious thinkers tend to be a little divorced from the 'common-or-garden' forms of religion that contribute to [1] and [2] above but I don't think there really is such a reluctance to engage with them. Could you give some examples of these serious thinkers?

4. Finally, I will go so far as to say that there is sometimes in the atheist a want of wonder.

Pardon?!?! Science writing, particularly the 'popular science' that I like to read, is full of wonder. The desire to understand why something is the way it is pushes the door to wonder wide open.

5. Atheists appear to be irritated by those in their periphery who possess a quiet confidence in their biblically informed and diametrically opposed points of view.

This appears to be your own contribution to everything above (which was copy-and-pasted) and has a notable Christian bias. We are not irritated by such people per-se. What does irritate us is when peoples religious beliefs affect society and public policy, just as you would be 'irritated' if Muslims seriously tried to get you to subject yourself to Sharia law.

--- Penguin

Originally posted by Penguin

1. Atheists genuinely resent the evil that religion has done.

As your quote said, this is a perfectly valid reason to be angry.

2. They are convinced that religion is a fairy tale made up of whole cloth that impedes science/progress/rational thought.

Again, this is a perfectly valid reason to be angry.

[quote]3. Her ...[text shortened]... ritated' if Muslims seriously tried to get you to subject yourself to Sharia law.

--- Penguin

What does irritate us is when peoples religious beliefs affect society and public policy...
Set aside the idiocy that fuels both the abortion and stem cell research debate.
Can you not think of even one significant and advantageous impact religious beliefs have wrought in the last four centuries?

Originally posted by Penguin

1. Atheists genuinely resent the evil that religion has done.

As your quote said, this is a perfectly valid reason to be angry.

2. They are convinced that religion is a fairy tale made up of whole cloth that impedes science/progress/rational thought.

Again, this is a perfectly valid reason to be angry.

[quote]3. Her ...[text shortened]... ritated' if Muslims seriously tried to get you to subject yourself to Sharia law.

--- Penguin

If you disagree with any of Rabbi David Wolpe's five assessments of why Atheists are so angry, perhaps you could suggest a few of your own. Please clarify the ways in which anyone is seriously trying to subject or coerce you to accept Christianity.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]What does irritate us is when peoples religious beliefs affect society and public policy...
Set aside the idiocy that fuels both the abortion and stem cell research debate.
Can you not think of even one significant and advantageous impact religious beliefs have wrought in the last four centuries?[/b]

Well there is a fair bit of fine art and architecture, but its hard to tell whether the art, architecture or anything else was actually better because of religion than it would have been without it. I really am struggling to think any aspect of life in the last 400 years that could objectively be said to have been better because of religion. Can you make any suggestions?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
If you disagree with any of Rabbi David Wolpe's five assessments of why Atheists are so angry, perhaps you could suggest a few of your own. Please clarify the ways in which anyone is seriously trying to subject or coerce you to accept Christianity.

I agree with [1] and [2], but not with [3], [4] or [5], for reasons I have outlined. I can't offhand think of any reasons that would not fit under either [1] or [2].

Why are you so obsessed with Christianity here? The OP is from a Jewish Rabbi and is talking about all religion. I see nothing special about you particular brand.

Penguin

Originally posted by Penguin
Well there is a fair bit of fine art and architecture, but its hard to tell whether the art, architecture or anything else was actually better because of religion than it would have been without it. I really am struggling to think any aspect of life in the last 400 years that could objectively be said to have been better [b]because of religion. Can you make any suggestions?[/b]

•If it weren't for Christians pulling afflicted bodies out of the street in Corinth back in the mid-200's, the city would have been wiped out by disease.

•The early Christians took political stances against infanticide, slavery, gladiatorial combats, degrading treatment of women.

•Monasteries were often used for hospitals or as places of refuge.
•They also preserved ancient documents, books through their scribe practices, as well as developed advanced agricultural skills and knowledge.

•The first mass produced book by moving press was the Bible.

•The ideas expressed by Christian thinkers such as Calvin helped transform from the RCC-ruled empire to stewardships.

•During a time before medicine and technology became more reliable, religion was a source of comfort, offering a sense of belonging and familial succor as well as social structure necessary for organizing efforts.
•Religion brought economic structure to people's efforts, too.

•Spain was inspired by a desire to increase the knowledge of God, thereby sending Columbus out to find both a better route for trade and any expansion for their kingdom.

•North America would have remained dormant for a much longer period of time, if not for the religious impetus to bring people here back in the early 1600's.

•Science rose in the West (Newton, Pasteur, Kepler, Paschal, Fleming, Edwards), not the East.

•Scientific inquiry is a mirror image of the Christian perspective.

•Higher education is a mainstay of Christianity (100 of the first 110 schools were established for theological training).

•As you mentioned, art is awash in religious imagery and messages.

•Slavery of blacks was brought down through the efforts of Christians (beginning with Wesley's "Thoughts on Slavery" and on from there).

•Prison reform.

•Labor reform.

•Missionary work by the religious brings help and comfort to the recipients.

That's a few ways Christianity and/or religion has done some good...

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"Why Are Atheists So Angry?"

"By Rabbi David Wolpe - Huffington Post Added: Friday, 11 March 2011 at 3:21 AM Thanks to Morgan Zee for the link. How harmless is it to post an article about why people should read the bible on a site devoted to religion? I did on this very page, and it evoked more than 2,000 responses, most of them angry. I had ...[text shortened]... ly acquire the mind of Christ and share the perfect happiness of God. 'Grace' is a foreign word.[/b]

You sure are starting a lot of anti-atheist threads lately GB. Somebody getting on your nerves?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
You sure are starting a lot of anti-atheist threads lately GB. Somebody getting on your nerves?

GB is just trying to redress the balance of the universe! 😀

Originally posted by Penguin
Well there is a fair bit of fine art and architecture, but its hard to tell whether the art, architecture or anything else was actually better because of religion than it would have been without it. I really am struggling to think any aspect of life in the last 400 years that could objectively be said to have been better [b]because of religion. Can you make any suggestions?[/b]

unbelievable statement, Carravagio would be turning in his grave, Titian as well! are you somehow forgetting of the social reformers who advocated an end to slavery, who reformed the prisons, the hospitals, primarily motivated by their religious sensibilities and you could not even grant them that? shameful, really shameful.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
You sure are starting a lot of anti-atheist threads lately GB. Somebody getting on your nerves?

Hi, where you been hiding? I'll resist the temptation to suggest under an vlnch... lol To your question: one reason and one motive. As I've replied to similar questions from other articulate contributors to this forum for several months, I'm ignorant on the topic of 'atheism' and would like to correct the deficiency. Motive: to hopefully restore civility and objectivity to discourse and conversation by focusing on familiar turf quotations and opinions of famous atheists (many of whom were suggested by SwissGambit, LemonJello and Duchess64). I care about critical questions and crucial issues, not pettiness.