16 Jan 16
Originally posted by sonshipI guess i mean, do you view all 66 books as pieces in a jigsaw puzzle, so that if one of them were missing the final puzzle would be incomplete? Or are some books less important or perhaps have no relevance at all to modern man? (After all, it was ancient man who pulled them together).
[b] Are any of those 66 books surplus to requirements?
I am not sure what you mean by the question.
The Jews went through a process of discovering the books truly inspired (among the plethora of sacred writings)
Then the Christian church went through the same lengthy process.
I also note you wrote 'at this time.' Are you therefore leavi ...[text shortened]... jor work of the word of God is to act as a cleansing agent as well as an informative revelation.
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16 Jan 16
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Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeI guess i mean, do you view all 66 books as pieces in a jigsaw puzzle, so that if one of them were missing the final puzzle would be incomplete? Or are some books less important or perhaps have no relevance at all to modern man? (After all, it was ancient man who pulled them together).
I guess i mean, do you view all 66 books as pieces in a jigsaw puzzle, so that if one of them were missing the final puzzle would be incomplete? Or are some books less important or perhaps have no relevance at all to modern man? (After all, it was ancient man who pulled them together).
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I do not have as much to be as verbose as I would like.
A zigsaw puzzle is not a bad description. But in this puzzle we have three elements.
We have a book from God.
We have the living Holy Spirit to guide His people about that book.
We have people of God who through obedience enter more and more into the mearning of the book.
This is like a triangle.
We do not have JUST a book and people of varied levels of intelligence scratching their heads as to its meaning.
We have the book from God to man.
We have BEHIND the book the Spirit of the living God leading men into and through it.
Then we must have obedient believers growing in insight into the book via the leading of the Holy Spirit.
The nature of this communication is effective for every age from the time of the last book in he canon until now. We believe that it will be adequate also moving forward into the future.
And that is all I can write now. God is living. God is a living God. And His Spirit illumines upon the book guiding men and women of each generation concerning the vital matters to be noticed and adhered to in His communication.
16 Jan 16
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeNo. The era of prophecy is over.
Are any of those 66 books surplus to requirements?
I also note you wrote 'at this time.' Are you therefore leaving the door open to future additional books?
More than enough has been written to guide men toward God. This is the function of the Bible. It is complete.
17 Jan 16
Originally posted by SuzianneSo even though moral dilemma's have gotten a thousand times more complex and technology a million times more advanced than 2 or 3 thousand years ago, there is no need for further books?
No. The era of prophecy is over.
More than enough has been written to guide men toward God. This is the function of the Bible. It is complete.
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17 Jan 16
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Originally posted by sonhouseSo even though moral dilemma's have gotten a thousand times more complex and technology a million times more advanced than 2 or 3 thousand years ago, there is no need for further books?
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No. Christ is with us. He said He is with us until the consummation of the age.
" Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:19,20)
Let the changing ages torture test the indestructibility of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away." (Matt. 24:35)
17 Jan 16
Originally posted by Suzianne"More than enough" !? So not "precisely enough" then, or any other way of expressing the concept that your god met the human requirement for guidance with minimal redundancy?
No. The era of prophecy is over.
More than enough has been written to guide men toward God. This is the function of the Bible. It is complete.
I would have expected better from the all-knowing, all-doing, "perfect", creator of everything!
17 Jan 16
Originally posted by Suzianne
No. The era of prophecy is over.
More than enough has been written to guide men toward God. This is the function of the Bible. It is complete.
"More than enough" !? So not "precisely enough" then, or any other way of expressing the concept that your god met the human requirement for guidance with minimal redundancy?
I would have expected better from the all-knowing, all-doing, "perfect", creator of everything!
God's will continues to be revealed to man; revelation is on-going. It's just no longer expressed as additional 'books' in Biblical form.
17 Jan 16
Originally posted by SuzianneIt seems to me that the purported revelation of the Christian God figure ~ even as Christians describe it and account for it ~ was not a very well executed revelation and it quite clearly could have been more effective in convincing people of His existence and the imperative that they believe in Him and follow His supposed instructions.
More than enough has been written to guide men toward God. This is the function of the Bible. It is complete.
17 Jan 16
Originally posted by FMFIf there is a God and if that God ever had something to say to man, it strikes me as very unlikely that there would have been only one epiphany and only in human form and speaking only Aramaic. It seems to me much more likely that to every people, a messenger would come who addressed them in the manner to which they were accustomed, that they might better understand the message.
It seems to me that the purported revelation of the Christian God figure ~ even as Christians describe it and account for it ~ was not a very well executed revelation and it quite clearly could have been more effective in convincing people of His existence and the imperative that they believe in Him and follow His supposed instructions.
17 Jan 16
Originally posted by moonbusI don't see how a "message" as specific and as mundanely absolutist as the Christian one (about the exclusive role of Jesus in the supposed "salvation" - only - of his followers) fits into what you and I are saying would make sense in terms of the same God revealing Himself to all mankind in all those places where mankind has lived [and looked to their versions of God] for millennia.
If there is a God and if that God ever had something to say to man, it strikes me as very unlikely that there would have been only one epiphany and only in human form and speaking only Aramaic. It seems to me much more likely that to every people, a messenger would come who addressed them in the manner to which they were accustomed, that they might better understand the message.
Originally posted by FMFPeople with a rude level of understanding tend not to understand spiritual abstractions; they need hypostatizations, miracles, absolute commandments, rigid rituals, literalistic and simplistic explanations. Whereas people with a more sophisticated level of spiritual understanding do quite well with gentle guidelines in the right general direction; they don't need an epiphany hurling miracles about and raising people from the dead in order to get the message. This is something Asian mystical traditions have understood for thousands of years, that different people are best served by different modes of spirituality. The way of meditation and the way of works are equally respected in Asia.
I don't see how a "message" as specific and as mundanely absolutist as the Christian one (about the exclusive role of Jesus in the supposed "salvation" - only - of his followers) fits into what you and I are saying would make sense in terms of the same God revealing Himself to all mankind in all those places where mankind has lived [and looked to their versions of God] for millennia.
The Christian tradition has never accepted that other religions are spiritual paths at all; the Christian tradition views other religions as either failed Christianity (e.g, Judaism, Islam) or as satanic (paganism in all its forms, incl. Hinduism and Buddhism). "Judge not..." is the one thing Christians cannot do. Pity, really, that they fail to comprehend Jesus's message so comprehensively. I suspect that this may be more Paul's doing than Jesus's though.
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17 Jan 16
2 edits
Originally posted by moonbusGod's will continues to be revealed to man; revelation is on-going. It's just no longer expressed as additional 'books' in Biblical form.
[b]Originally posted by Suzianne
No. The era of prophecy is over.
More than enough has been written to guide men toward God. This is the function of the Bible. It is complete.
"More than enough" !? So not "precisely enough" then, or any other way of expressing the concept that your god met the human requirement for guidance with minimal redundancy?
...[text shortened]... n; revelation is on-going. It's just no longer expressed as additional 'books' in Biblical form.
I agree with this. I might put it as illumination upon what has been written.
An example: For many years the truth of justification by faith was virtually lost to the church, People thought that the Pope granted salvation. Perhaps if you crawled up the steps to the Pope's chair and kissed his ring, the Pope would grant you to be justified.
Martin Luther was used by God to capture the illumination upon the passages already written. This was not NEW revelation in that sense. It was written. It was recovered revelation. The light of God shone upon what was written and pulled back the veil over people's spiritual eyes.
A result was the Reformation and we have today preserved Justification by Faith. The verses were in John and Romans and in Galatians.
God did not inspire a new book to add to the canon. He did illuminate the hearts of men by means of a recovery of buried revelation. He has not stopped doing this.
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17 Jan 16
I encourage people to study The Recovery Version of the Bible with up-to-date exposition helping Christians to view the present state of God's recovery of the truth in the Holy Scripture.
www.recoveryversion.org
The New Testament portion of the Recovery Version can be obtained for free at -
www.biblesforamerica.org
Of course both the text and the footnotes should be approached with prayer and turning of one's heart toward the Lord Jesus.
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17 Jan 16
In this passage the Apostle Peter recommends his younger apostle Paul's letters. He calls them Scripture. They only had the Jewish Bible at that time. Peter, the leading disciple of the 12 recognized that this younger rabbi (who had incidentally rebuked Peter publically) had illuminated insight into the Gospel.
"And count the long-suffering of our Lord to be salvation, even as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you.
As also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist, as also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." ( 2 Peter 3:15,16)
Peter, said some things Paul wrote were hard to understand. But he perceived that Paul knew the very same Jesus, experienced deeply Jesus, and had insight into the Jewish Bible about Jesus of which he wrote in his epistles.
As I said above. We have the book of God, the Holy Spirit of God to guide us, and the people of God (mainly the prophets and apostles) whose lives reflect the power of His salvation. These with the Holy Spirit help us to harness the living light in the written Scriptures, and to live them.
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17 Jan 16
The early disciples were Jews and had only the Old Testament books.
Peter heard the young apostle Paul and read his letters. Peter may have consulted with John.
Peter: " John, do you remember the Master saying anything about the Body of Christ and we being His members ? This is something I don't remember Jesus telling us about."
John: " I know what you mean Peter. But it does sound like what the Master said about Him being the true vine and we being the branches. It really is saying something of the same thing but with different words. I think this man has the wisdom of God."
This is purely a hypothetical discussion between two original disciples about the talking of the Apostle Paul. They heard this rabbi expound the Old Testament with a totally Christ-centric emphasis. God was illuminating the pages of the Tanakh, the canon of the Hebrew Bible in the hands of Paul, who was not one of the 12 original disciples.
We do not have all his letters. God did not allow all his letters to be canonical. We do have 13 or 14 (depending on the authorship of Hebrews). They were discovered to be canonical and are a good portion of the New Testament.
The canon of the both the Old Testament and New, is not an authoritative list. It is a list of authoritative books.