Why Are Things Believed ?

@fmf said
Go back and read it again. What you are saying is the opposite of what was posted.

No, I actually believe it was your opinion, I don't need to read it again, you said it,
it has to be your opinion.

@kellyjay said
Not sure what you are complaining about, we are all here just sharing our opinions,
and I read yours.

Did I forget to add, that you are welcome to have your opinion too?

But, having read it, you clearly did not understand it because you have written sheer nonsense about what I posted.

@kellyjay said
No, I actually believe it was your opinion, I don't need to read it again, you said it,
it has to be your opinion.

Don't run away from the clanger you have dropped. Pick it up. Own it.

In your fumbling attempt to be passive-aggressive you are coming across as someone who has no idea what walking-the-walk of marriage actually entails and the all-encompassing role love plays.

@fmf said
Don't run away from the clanger you have dropped. Pick it up. Own it.

In your fumbling attempt to be passive-aggressive you are coming across as someone who has no idea what walking-the-walk of marriage actually entails and the all-encompassing role love plays.

Who is running away, you voiced your opinion, I acknowledge you voiced your
opinion isn't that the truth, it's all just opinions. You can have your opinion and
voice it, I support that!

@kellyjay said
Who is running away, you voiced your opinion, I acknowledge you voiced your
opinion isn't that the truth, it's all just opinions. You can have your opinion and
voice it, I support that!

What do you think you are achieving with this passive-aggressive nonsense?

@kellyjay said
If all you do in life is look at what you get out of things, what a pity.

Huh?

Did you not "get" loved back?
Did you not "get" her as a partner and companion and confidante?
Did you not "get" someone who then placed you at the very centre of your life?
Did you not "get" her commitment that she would stick with you through thick and thin?
Did you not "get" someone that perhaps spared you a life of solitude and loneliness?
Did you not "get" someone who would bear your children?
Did you not "get" someone who would raise children with you?

Have you not yourself ever been married, KellyKay?

How on Earth can you think that any of the things on this list are "instead of love"?

@kellyjay said
What exactly are you discussing here the assertions that are currently being made or what you think I dwell on?

The thread is about operative reasons how people come to believe things for which there is either no evidence or entirely disputable evidence, how people come to believe in supernatural causality, and specifically in your case, how you came to believe in the God of Abraham and not Shiva or Ahura Mazda or Quetzlquatl or a Great Big Tooth Fairy or Zeus or any of thousands of other deities. You have said you believe because you believe what you believe to be true. While I would like to take you at your word, there remain two problems with your answer. And I do not mean because I think you are lying or that your belief is false. The two problems I see with your answer are these.

First, everyone believes that what he believes is true, not just you. Hindus believe that their belief in re-incarnation is true. Muslims believe that their belief that an angel spoke to Mohammed is true. It is some kind of contradiction to say "I believe X and it's not true" -- so your answer doesn't really do any work. It's some kind tautology, like saying "white snow is white." Furthermore, truth cannot be the operative reason why someone comes to believe something -- it is not part of the psychological process of coming to believe. It's part of the aftermath, after one has already, for other reasons, accepted a particular belief. Truth cannot be the operative reason why someone comes to believe something, because before you believe it (whatever it is) you do not know that it is true; you think it might be or hope it is true, but before you believe it you don't yet know it.

Second, I have asked you more than once whether you would continue to believe what you believe if one detail were changed. If there were no promise of resurrection and everlasting life, hypothetically, if that one bit were subtracted, would you still believe all the rest (about Adam and Eve and the flood and the Ten Commandments and so on)? The reason for my asking is this: I have observed among all the Christians I ever knew, that this one bit is really central; go into any Christian church in the world, and the centerpiece is an image of Jesus dying on the cross (and not, for example, the Ten Commandments). Go into any Christian monastery in the world, and there will be depictions of the 12 stages of the passion of Jesus. It's all about the resurrection. So, my gut feeling about this religion is this: the real operative reason why people such as yourself come to believe it is not because it is true (and you won't know whether it is true until after you die), but because it gives people a hope they can't resist: the offer of personal immortality if they believe. I believe that that is what attracts people in the first place. The belief that it's true comes later, as an after-effect of believing.

So answer the question please: would you still believe that the Adam and Eve bits and the flood bits of the Bible are true, even if the resurrection and the promise of everlasting life were subtracted?

Or, to put this another way: suppose Jesus appeared to his disciples three days after being executed and said to them (and this were reported verbatim in a lost Gospel): "Hi guys, I'm back. Been three days in the underworld and man am I hungry -- got any meat? I'm famished. Oh, I see you're startled. C'mon, put your fingers in my wounds -- satisfy yourselves that it's really me, not a ghost or an apparition. Oh, by the way, just to clear up any possible future misunderstandings, there's no eternal life for you guys or anyone else--only me. I'm the only one who's gonna get resurrected, just so you'll take me seriously. Now, I really really want you guys to spread the word to all mankind: keep the Ten Commandments, love God, love thy neighbor, and for God's sake love yourselves, too! Not because you're going to get some reward later -- there isn't any later. You're all gonna die and stay dead. But keep the commandments just because that's a civilized way to live in peace with your neighbors. Otherwise there's going to be strife for the next 2,000 years here in the Levant. Got that?"

Would that be enough reason for you to believe and to follow the commandments, because Jesus said so without any promise of personal immortality? Or do you really need the bit about personal life everlasting in order to believe??

@moonbus said
The thread is about operative reasons how people come to believe things for which there is either no evidence or entirely disputable evidence, how people come to believe in supernatural causality, and specifically in your case, how you came to believe in the God of Abraham and not Shiva or Ahura Mazda or Quetzlquatl or a Great Big Tooth Fairy or Zeus or any of thousands of ot ...[text shortened]... immortality?[/b] Or do you really need the bit about personal life everlasting in order to believe??

The love God shows us is the compelling reason, that a few would die for a good
man there is no greater love, Christ died for His enemies. You want to turn this into
something selfish while God showed us selflessness.

@moonbus said
The thread is about operative reasons how people come to believe things for which there is either no evidence or entirely disputable evidence, how people come to believe in supernatural causality, and specifically in your case, how you came to believe in the God of Abraham and not Shiva or Ahura Mazda or Quetzlquatl or a Great Big Tooth Fairy or Zeus or any of thousands of ot ...[text shortened]... immortality?[/b] Or do you really need the bit about personal life everlasting in order to believe??

Your stating there is no evidence is only true because you refuse to entertain some
of the most profound questions of the beginning. If you only want to look at what
allows you to keep yourself from seeing that you are willfully blind.

@kellyjay said
Your stating there is no evidence is only true because you refuse to entertain some
of the most profound questions of the beginning.

The answers to "profound questions of the beginning" = speculation.

What makes you think people like moonbus and me haven't "entertained" the questions you refer to?

"Entertaining ... profound questions" does not create objective facts.

@kellyjay said
Your stating there is no evidence

Actually, what he said was "there is either no evidence or entirely disputable evidence". Why did you refer to only PART of his sentence and deliberately omit the word "disputable"?

@fmf said
The answers to "profound questions of the beginning" = speculation.

What makes you think people like moonbus and me haven't "entertained" the questions you refer to?

"Entertaining ... profound questions" does not create objective facts.

How what an opinion!

@kellyjay said
How what an opinion!

I have engaged what you posted.

@kellyjay said
The love God shows us is the compelling reason, that a few would die for a good
man there is no greater love, Christ died for His enemies. You want to turn this into
something selfish while God showed us selflessness.

That doesn’t answer the question, what made you believe it, whether you would still believe it if there were no promise of eternal life for you.

@kellyjay said
Your stating there is no evidence is only true because you refuse to entertain some
of the most profound questions of the beginning. If you only want to look at what
allows you to keep yourself from seeing that you are willfully blind.

That doesn’t answer the question, what made you believe it, whether you would still believe it if there were no promise of eternal life for you.