1. Maryland
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    01 Dec '15 17:37
    Robert Louis Dear — the right-wing Christian terrorist who attacked a Planned Parenthood location in Colorado Springs — was a violent, woman-hating serial offender with a history of sexual assault and domestic violence. An ex-wife said in court documents that the 57-year-old believes that “as long as he’s saved” by Jesus Christ, “he can do whatever he pleases.”
  2. Joined
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    01 Dec '15 18:10
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Robert Louis Dear — the right-wing Christian terrorist who attacked a Planned Parenthood location in Colorado Springs — was a violent, woman-hating serial offender with a history of sexual assault and domestic violence. An ex-wife said in court documents that the 57-year-old believes that “as long as he’s saved” by Jesus Christ, “he can do whatever he pleases.”
    I take it you are not a supporter of the "no true Scotsman" excuse?
  3. Standard memberDeepThought
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    01 Dec '15 18:37
    I think his anti-social personality would have found a way of manifesting itself had he been an atheist.
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    01 Dec '15 18:42
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Robert Louis Dear — the right-wing Christian terrorist who attacked a Planned Parenthood location in Colorado Springs — was a violent, woman-hating serial offender with a history of sexual assault and domestic violence. An ex-wife said in court documents that the 57-year-old believes that “as long as he’s saved” by Jesus Christ, “he can do whatever he pleases.”
    That is the basic doctrine of modern Christianity. It certainly is contrary to what Jesus Christ and the Apostles preached.
  5. Maryland
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    01 Dec '15 18:50
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I think his anti-social personality would have found a way of manifesting itself had he been an atheist.
    That may be true, but he would have had less license to think he was doing good.
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    01 Dec '15 19:53
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I think his anti-social personality would have found a way of manifesting itself had he been an atheist.
    We can all agree, that there are some people who will do harm almost no-matter what.

    And on the flip side, that there are some people who will be kind and good almost no-matter what.

    That these people exist is not an argument against everyone else in the middle being influenced for
    better or for worse by the set of beliefs that form their world view.

    I watched a program a couple of years back on research done on psychopaths, and what made them
    different from 'normal' human beings. In that program there was a researcher who discovered distinctive
    differences between 'normal' brain function in a test and the brain function of a psychopath in the same
    test. Distinctly different areas of the brain lit up. The parts of the brain that didn't light up in the psychopaths
    were those believed responsible for things like empathy to others.
    This researcher having tested a whole bunch of psychopaths [serial killers] and finding them to all show
    the same pattern tested his own brain to be one of the reference 'normal brains' for his work.
    And he found he had the same pattern as the serial killers, but he wasn't a serial killer himself.
    Asking around with his colleagues and friends/family, he discovered that he showed all the traits of
    psychopathy, and that this wasn't a false reading. He was a psychopath... But not a serial killer.
    What they believe made the difference between a normal psychopath like himself and a serial killer
    is that ALL the serial killers had some kind of traumatic past [usually in childhood]. And that he,
    by contrast, had a very happy stable childhood.

    The point of this being that generally speaking, simply having an increased propensity for violence [etc]
    doesn't mean you will become so. There needs to also be something in your environment/upbringing that
    sets you down that path.

    Religion, can be that extra factor.

    If someone of the right personality is told that the bible [for example] is the inerrant word of god and they
    actually believe it and go read the bible and take it literally... Well you know the kind of horrors present in
    the bible if taken literally.


    So while it is of course not only religion that can cause potentially dangerous people into actually dangerous
    people, it is ONE of the things that can do so.

    And if you reduce/eliminate this potential cause, the other potential causes do not automatically increase
    to take up the slack. This is why it is and has been possible to reduce crime rates of all kinds by reducing or
    eliminating the causes of crime. [poverty, inequality, etc]

    So I don't think it is in fact reasonable to state [without knowing the facts] that any given person WOULD have
    been similarly violent anyway, if a particular cause is removed.
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    01 Dec '15 20:511 edit
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Robert Louis Dear — the right-wing Christian terrorist who attacked a Planned Parenthood location in Colorado Springs — was a violent, woman-hating serial offender with a history of sexual assault and domestic violence. An ex-wife said in court documents that the 57-year-old believes that “as long as he’s saved” by Jesus Christ, “he can do whatever he pleases.”
    What nonesense! Your personal aversion to people who call themselves Christians is coming through loud and clear Joe. If Robert was an atheist that killed puppies, would we say atheism was 'so dangerous?' , for animals? I think not and rightly so. Robert Louis Dear is many things (and you listed several) including mental ill, it has nothing to do with being a Christian. Incidentally, his actions don't reflect the character of Jesus or Christianity, just so you know he's more like a madman.
  8. Standard memberRajk999
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    01 Dec '15 21:11
    Originally posted by yoctobyte
    What nonesense! Your personal aversion to people who call themselves Christians is coming through loud and clear Joe. If Robert was an atheist that killed puppies, would we say atheism was 'so dangerous?' , for animals? I think not and rightly so. Robert Louis Dear is many things (and you listed several) including mental ill, it has nothing to do with ...[text shortened]... don't reflect the character of Jesus or Christianity, just so you know he's more like a madman.
    You missed the point. I'm not a supporter of Joes rants but the point made is a valid one. That is that to tell a man that there are no consequences or very little consequences for grevious sins is a very wrong thing to do. Christian churches do that all the time and it encourages evil rather than discourage it.
  9. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    01 Dec '15 21:24
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Robert Louis Dear — the right-wing Christian terrorist who attacked a Planned Parenthood location in Colorado Springs — was a violent, woman-hating serial offender with a history of sexual assault and domestic violence. An ex-wife said in court documents that the 57-year-old believes that “as long as he’s saved” by Jesus Christ, “he can do whatever he pleases.”
    lol
  10. Joined
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    01 Dec '15 21:24
    Originally posted by yoctobyte
    What nonesense! Your personal aversion to people who call themselves Christians is coming through loud and clear Joe. If Robert was an atheist that killed puppies, would we say atheism was 'so dangerous?' , for animals? I think not and rightly so. Robert Louis Dear is many things (and you listed several) including mental ill, it has nothing to do with ...[text shortened]... don't reflect the character of Jesus or Christianity, just so you know he's more like a madman.
    The difference [a difference] is that atheism is not a belief system, and Christianity is.
    Christianity comes as a huge package [in many different flavours to suite nearly all tastes]
    of beliefs and ideas and history and cultural baggage etc.
    Atheism is simply the position of lacking a belief in a god or gods. There is not there there to
    build upon.

    So if you talk about issues like abortion, there are tenets and rules and stuff from the Bible that
    speak to the morality etc of abortion in the eye's of the Christian religion.
    Atheism on the other hand, says absolutely nothing at all whatsoever on the subject.
    The argument "god does not exist and thus abortion is morally wrong" is a non-sequitur. It's gibberish.
    You cannot logically get from "I don't believe that gods exist" to "abortion is bad" without introducing
    some other belief system into the mix. And that other belief system is where the problem [if there is one]
    lies.

    Similarly, if you look at [for example] Stalinist communism, there are many theists who point to that and
    say "hey that's an 'atheist system that's evil, therefore atheism leads to evil" or similar.
    Which is as dumb as saying that "Stalin wasn't a stamp collector, and thus not being a stamp collector leads
    to being evil". Because the fact that they were promoting atheism [because they didn't want peoples loyalties
    to be split between the state and anyone/anything else] has nothing to do with why they were evil.
    Because there is nothing in atheism, and thus nothing to lead you to evil. [or stop it either]

    In another example, there are clear sections of the bible that say that being/acting gay is morally bad.
    So when [many] Christians over the centuries have and do persecute gay people, you can point to the
    bits of the Christian religion and say "hey, you're religion says being gay is wrong, and you persecute
    gay people, maybe there is a connection here."
    You cannot do that with atheism, because there is nothing in atheism to point to.

    Christianity, like many/most/all religions tells you [to some degree] what and how to think.
    And thus it bears a responsibility for actions and thoughts people make/have that stem from the what
    and why that their religion encourages/indoctrinates upon them.

    Atheism is not a religion and doesn't tell you what to think or why. It's simply a label for all those for
    whatever reason do not have a belief in some kind of god/s.
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    01 Dec '15 22:04
    Originally posted by 667joe
    That may be true, but he would have had less license to think he was doing good.
    Are you going to answer my question?
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    01 Dec '15 22:091 edit
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    The difference [a difference] is that atheism is not a belief system, and Christianity is.
    Christianity comes as a huge package [in many different flavours to suite nearly all tastes]
    of beliefs and ideas and history and cultural baggage etc.
    Atheism is simply the position of lacking a belief in a god or gods. There is not there there ...[text shortened]... s simply a label for all those for
    whatever reason do not have a belief in some kind of god/s.
    The difference between Atheism and Christianity doesn't come into play as far as I'm
    concern here. The guy is mad, he could claim to belong to any group it would not be a
    reflection upon the group. If you remember Charles Mason said he got direction from
    listening to the Beatles White album to kill, do we condemn all of those that listen to music?

    Now that may before you time hard to say, but the point is that with some people they will
    find an excuse, any excuse to do evil. If it is in their heart to do it, they will.
  13. Joined
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    01 Dec '15 22:16
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    The difference between Atheism and Christianity doesn't come into play as far as I'm
    concern here. The guy is mad, he could claim to belong to any group it would not be a
    reflection upon the group. If you remember Charles Mason said he got direction from
    listening to the Beatles White album to kill, do we condemn all of those that listen to music?

    Now ...[text shortened]... e they will
    find an excuse, any excuse to do evil. If it is in their heart to do it, they will.
    The guy is mad, he could claim to belong to any group it would not be a
    reflection upon the group.


    Funnily that is what is always said about white Christian mass-murderers, and never
    what is said about Islamic mass-murderers.

    There are many many many people with mental disorders. Many of which could in the
    right circumstances lead to them being violent.

    Given that, its obviously true, that belief systems that create 'the right circumstances'
    are [at least in part] responsible for the harm done by such people.
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    01 Dec '15 22:19
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    The difference [a difference] is that atheism is not a belief system, and Christianity is.
    Christianity comes as a huge package [in many different flavours to suite nearly all tastes]
    of beliefs and ideas and history and cultural baggage etc.
    Atheism is simply the position of lacking a belief in a god or gods. There is not there there ...[text shortened]... s simply a label for all those for
    whatever reason do not have a belief in some kind of god/s.
    The difference [a difference] is that atheism is not a belief system, and Christianity is.
    Christianity comes as a huge package [in many different flavours to suite nearly all tastes]
    of beliefs and ideas and history and cultural baggage etc.
    Atheism is simply the position of lacking a belief in a god or gods. There is not there there to
    build upon.

    You can say atheism (and you may believe it yourself is not a religion), but it certainly is adhered to as if it were by many, I know of some myself. But aren't we arguing semantics here if we allow ourselves to?

    So if you talk about issues like abortion, there are tenets and rules and stuff from the Bible that
    speak to the morality etc of abortion in the eye's of the Christian religion.
    Atheism on the other hand, says absolutely nothing at all whatsoever on the subject.
    The argument "god does not exist and thus abortion is morally wrong" is a non-sequitur. It's gibberish.
    You cannot logically get from "I don't believe that gods exist" to "abortion is bad" without introducing
    some other belief system into the mix. And that other belief system is where the problem [if there is one]
    lies.

    There is nothing that I am aware of in the bible that speaks to 'abortion', it's life and we should call it that so there is no confusion. I am not arguing anything about abortion. The truth is, if the revelations of late summer and early fall of this year with regards to abortion and Planned Parenthood don't turn your stomach, I don't know what will. I do believe this, we are beyond the 'pro-choice or rights argument' with regards to abortion, and on to celebrating it... truthfully we are... it's sickening.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/09/21/women-celebrate-their-abortions-with-viral-shoutyourabortion-hashtag/

    As a side note, do you believe abortion is bad?

    Similarly, if you look at [for example] Stalinist communism, there are many theists who point to that and
    say "hey that's an 'atheist system that's evil, therefore atheism leads to evil" or similar.
    Which is as dumb as saying that "Stalin wasn't a stamp collector, and thus not being a stamp collector leads
    to being evil". Because the fact that they were promoting atheism [because they didn't want peoples loyalties
    to be split between the state and anyone/anything else] has nothing to do with why they were evil.
    Because there is nothing in atheism, and thus nothing to lead you to evil. [or stop it either]

    In another example, there are clear sections of the bible that say that being/acting gay is morally bad.
    So when [many] Christians over the centuries have and do persecute gay people, you can point to the
    bits of the Christian religion and say "hey, you're religion says being gay is wrong, and you persecute
    gay people, maybe there is a connection here."

    I think you must have hit on every hot topic of the day and linked it with Christianity whether intentionally or not. A belief in no God is in of itself a belief, it is! We all have a system by which we function, a moral compass if you will. The subject of morals is hot because it is associated with a belief system, faith or religion if you will... but we all operate from one regardless of what we call it. Sometimes, as in the case of the man of the hour 'Robert Louis Dear' something goes wrong and people go haywire. Maybe this is due to financial pressures, family stress, drugs and alcohol, misinterpreted writings from wherever or mental illness... maybe big pharma? I understand that the majority of mass murders in the US are associated with anti-depressants/psychiatric drugs , should we now say that anybody taken these drugs is a possible threat? Because that is what the OP asserts with regards to Christians.

    I did a search on Google and pulled these stories up, there are hundreds. But let's not loose focus, people on these drugs should not labeled killers because they take them any more than Christian's should not be labeled 'dangerous' because a mad man murdered and said he was saved. Ridiculous!

    http://www.naturalnews.com/039752_mass_shootings_psychiatric_drugs_antidepressants.html#
    http://www.cchrint.org/2014/04/24/ssri-antidepressants-the-gateway-drug-to-mass-murder/
    http://www.wnd.com/2015/06/big-list-of-drug-induced-killers/

    The point is, the lumping of all Christians together to paint some picture has to stop. Judge a man individually and by his fruits and not by that actions of someone else or their profession of faith. It is only the fair thing to do, and the right thing!

    You seem rather intelligent, I am sure you would not want me to judge you based on the actions of another... would you?
  15. Maryland
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    01 Dec '15 22:44
    If you sin against another person, only that person can forgive you, not Jesus. It is very immoral to expect Jesus to forgive you and bypass the person against whom you have sinned! (This is the concept of vicarious redemption.)
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