Why Christianity won't go away

@mchill said
Dead people don't speak, Jesus was alive when he spoke those words to Thomas

But he was dead. The Romans executed him for sedition. He couldn't have spoken to anyone. The notion that he did is simply some folklore that was written decades and decades after his death.

@mchill said
Try some online bible study courses, they may have the answers to some of your evidence questions

Are they similar to the "answers" to the "evidence questions" that you're trying here?

@mchill said
From the tone of your questions and remarks, I'm getting the idea part of you would like to be a believer, but can't get over the hurdle of believing in something you can't prove

No, you are misreading the situation. What I am interested in, though, is the nature of people's beliefs and the distorting effect that it so often seems to have on their intellectual and interpersonal behaviour, and, sadly, all too often on their integrity when engaged in discourse.

@fmf said
No, you are misreading the situation. What I am interested in, though, is the nature of people's beliefs and the distorting effect that it so often seems to have on their intellectual and interpersonal behaviour, and, sadly, all too often on their integrity when engaged in discourse.

It's nice that your concerned about my "intellectual and interpersonal behaviour" but you need not be. I can see you're struggling with all of this, and that's understandable. It's a lot to consider.

@mchill said
It's nice that your concerned about my "intellectual and interpersonal behaviour" but you need not be.

Not you specifically. I simply corrected your misunderstanding and stated what it is I am interested in.

@philokalia said
That's right.

The resurrection was real, and man has lived forever in the shadow of this event.

I didn't know 2000 years qualifies as "forever." I suppose that's why many think 6000 years is sufficient for the formation of the Earth.

-Removed-

It is actually the case that Hinduism has been in massive reformation and retreat.

Islam, while sustaining itself, tends to be a religion that many do leave, but this is also done secretly.

It is illegal to convert to Christianity in nearly every Muslim country, and even Muslims in the West can face grave consequences and exile from their community if they convert. Sometimes, this may even mean violence.

@philokalia said
Islam, while sustaining itself, tends to be a religion that many do leave, but this is also done secretly. It is illegal to convert to Christianity in nearly every Muslim country, and even Muslims in the West can face grave consequences and exile from their community if they convert. Sometimes, this may even mean violence.

If we are both wrong, and Islam is, after all, the true revelation of the creator being and/or Abrahamic God, and if the way apostate Muslims are treated is in accordance with God's wishes, then your disapproval ~ and mine ~ is neither here nor there.

@philokalia said
It is actually the case that Hinduism has been in massive reformation and retreat.

Islam, while sustaining itself, tends to be a religion that many do leave, but this is also done secretly.

Christianity is on the decline in every first world country on the planet.
(Yes, even USA where atheism is frowned upon to the extent that there
are hordes of "closet atheists" ). All religion is in decline amongst
educated people around the world. (Percentages of atheists correlates
very well with level of education.) Within 50 years (and I hope sooner)
religion will be dismissed as astrology and cartomancy. There is simply
no rational reason to believe in supernatural beings.

@wolfgang59 said
Christianity is on the decline in every first world country on the planet.
(Yes, even USA where atheism is frowned upon to the extent that there
are hordes of "closet atheists" ). All religion is in decline amongst
educated people around the world. (Percentages of atheists correlates
very well with level of education.) Within 50 years (and I hope sooner)
r ...[text shortened]... as astrology and cartomancy. There is simply
no rational reason to believe in supernatural beings.

This is actually a misunderstanding of the real situation.

Rodney Stark has pointed out that as religion has retreated it has not been replaced by pure rationality.

Stark points to Sweden, which, he notes, "is almost always presented as exhibit A in the case for the triumph of secularization."

But how secular is Sweden? Stark points out that "more than 20 percent of Swedes say they believe in reincarnation; half believe in mental telepathy; and nearly one in five believes in the power of lucky charms.

A third believe in New Age medicine such as 'healing Crystals'; 20 percent would consider purchasing their personal horoscope; 10 percent would consult a medium; and nearly two out of five believe in ghosts."

https://www.prophecynewswatch.com/article.cfm?recent_news_id=1705

Stark is, actually, an atheist. However, he has given tremendous interviews on the reality behind atheism's presence in a society. You can find polls of scientists in the 19th century which show that a similar amount were atheists then as they were now. There are polls from France in the late 18th century which showed that only 72% of people self-identified as Christians.

Nietzsche, in the Antichrist, stated that one of the great scandals is that still a third of academics consider themselves Christians. He did not cite any poll, but by his judgment of his peer group, perhaps around 2/3 had already rejected Christianity. This would have been in the 1880s & 1890s Germany.

If you actually look at historic church attendance rates, Stark said, many of these cathedrals in European cities were largely empty as far back as the records go with some exceptional periods. He said that the same is true in Latin America, and the upticks in religiosity among South Americans correlate with the arrival of Protestantism. One of his books largely deals with the idea that competition is good for religion.

We aren't actually supposed to view religion as retreating, but we are supposed to actually be aware that religion had made an extremely strong assault into the consciousness of Europeans & Americans after WWI and up until the 1960s. It was a reivval of sorts, perhaps not unlike the revival in the Americas at the end of the 18th and beginning of the 19th centuries.

+++

University educations correlating with liberalism and a lack of religious belief is no surprise. They are places of indoctrination and function to create cosmopolitan cultures in far-flungpalces so that they become reflections of their metropoles.

@philokalia said
This is actually a misunderstanding of the real situation.

Rodney Stark has pointed out that as religion has retreated it has not been replaced by pure rationality.

[quote]Stark points to Sweden, which, he notes, "is almost always presented as exhibit A in the case for the triumph of secularization."

But how secular is Sweden? Stark points out that "more than 20 ...[text shortened]... create cosmopolitan cultures in far-flungpalces so that they become reflections of their metropoles.

Then how do you explain those Christians, mostly those who actually adhere to the teachings of Jesus, who are educated and politically liberal? How do they fit into your fantasy that university education + politically liberal = lack of belief?

@suzianne said
Then how do you explain those Christians, mostly those who actually adhere to the teachings of Jesus, who are educated and politically liberal? How do they fit into your fantasy that university education + politically liberal = lack of belief?

Obviously, going to a University does not mean you will become atheistic and more left-leaning, more aligned with cosmopolitanism, etc.

I would even say that there were perhaps times when a university education could mean becoming more conservative. A university can function as a means for indoctrinating anyone to anything...

And what is more obvious: atheism & leftist thought aren't accurate reflections of reality, so plenty of people who go there cannot be indoctrinated. Others are also just naturally stubborn or critical thinkers, and never are indoctrinated.

+++

Christians who are fiscally liberal are not necessarily indoctrinated by universities. However, any Christians who are liberal Christians that reject the bulk of socially conservative Christian teachings could be said to have been deeply affected by their University education.

@wolfgang59 said
Christianity is on the decline in every first world country on the planet.
(Yes, even USA where atheism is frowned upon to the extent that there
are hordes of "closet atheists" ). All religion is in decline amongst
educated people around the world. (Percentages of atheists correlates
very well with level of education.) Within 50 years (and I hope sooner)
r ...[text shortened]... as astrology and cartomancy. There is simply
no rational reason to believe in supernatural beings.

Not so.

Attendance in Churches, Temples, and Mosques is in decline worldwide, but not the belief in God. People have lost trust in institutions, bit not in God.

@philokalia said
Obviously, going to a University does not mean you will become atheistic and more left-leaning, more aligned with cosmopolitanism, etc.

I would even say that there were perhaps times when a university education could mean becoming more conservative. A university can function as a means for indoctrinating anyone to anything...

And what is more obvious: ...[text shortened]... vative Christian teachings could be said to have been deeply affected by their University education.

Defending conservatism as "reality".

Seems like hysterical ranting coming from a Christian.

I do not see how being a conservative aligns with actual Christianity, at ALL.

In fact I find it rather disturbing that your indoctrination makes you believe that universities exist as methods of indoctrination.