@fmf saidI would tell them that they are still mistaken.
What do you say to someone who lives his or her life in accordance with Jesus' commandments because they seem to be a good code for living but who just does not believe that he rose from the dead?
I imagine this is the case for innumerable self-identifying and "cultural" Christians.
We do not do good for the sake of these things seeming like a good idea. Indeed, we would even say that these things would not seem like a good idea if you were not a Christian.
For instance, if you did not believe that there was a God, and that you would neve rbe held accountable, why would you abstain from sexual pleasure outside of marriage? Why would you abstain from viewing pr0n? Why would you be careful to avoid drunkenness? While some rationale can exist for these things, these require generally religious justification.
There is also the question of loving your enemies and unconditional forgiveness.
Moreover, the most important commandment of them all is to love God with all your heart and all your mind... to pray to God regularly. If you do not believe in God, why would you do these things?
@philokalia saidPresumably, you consume pornography, then.
For instance, if you did not believe that there was a God, and that you would neve rbe held accountable, why would you abstain from sexual pleasure outside of marriage? Why would you abstain from viewing pr0n? Why would you be careful to avoid drunkenness? While some rationale can exist for these things, these require generally religious justification.
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@philokalia saidLet me get this straight. You believe non-believers would be "mistaken" to live their lives in accordance with Jesus' commandments [aside from the 'love God' one, of course] because they believed them to be a good code for living?
I would tell them that they are still mistaken.
@philokalia saidThey wouldn't do those things if they were non-believers.
Moreover, the most important commandment of them all is to love God with all your heart and all your mind... to pray to God regularly. If you do not believe in God, why would you do these things?
@fmf saidThey would be mistaken because they do not worship God, and you cannot actually follow Christ without following God.
Let me get this straight. You believe non-believers would be "mistaken" to live their lives in accordance with Jesus' commandments [aside from the 'love God' one, of course] because they believed them to be a good code for living?
I also pointed out that if you do not believe in God, many other things would not necessarily make sense to a materialist, such as the ideas of sexual purity.
@philokalia saidWow, I'll try again.
They would be mistaken because they do not worship God, and you cannot actually follow Christ without following God.
This is the question:
What do you say to someone who lives his or her life in accordance with Jesus' commandments because they seem to be a good code for living but who just does not believe that he rose from the dead?
So we are talking about people who do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
The question isn't about whether or not they are "mistaken" to believe something different from you.
The question is about living one's life in accordance with Jesus' commandments ~ as I said, not including the "command" to "love God" ~ because those commandments seem to be a good code for living.
@philokalia saidIt seems you are determined not to address the question. The question is not about people for whom living their lives in accordance with Jesus' commandments does not make sense. The question is clearly NOT about people like that.
I also pointed out that if you do not believe in God, many other things would not necessarily make sense to a materialist, such as the ideas of sexual purity.
@fmf saidThey would be mistaken because Christ rose from the dead, and loving God above all else is the foundation of all commandments.
Wow, I'll try again.
This is the question:
What do you say to someone who lives his or her life in accordance with Jesus' commandments because they seem to be a good code for living but who just does not believe that he rose from the dead?
So we are talking about people who do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
The question isn't about whether or not they are ...[text shortened]... ncluding the "command" to "love God" ~ because those commandments seem to be a good code for living.
To exist without rendering worship to God is a sin.
To embrace a Christian ethical system while rejecting God would have merits to it because it does affirm some very fundamental truths, but it is also somewhat off... For instance, if you believed there is no God, many of the more rigid and demanding concepts of sexual chastity and commands to forgive absolutely everyone, love your enemies, etc., would not intuitively make sense.
@philokalia saidIf, as you claim, it' would "not intuitively make sense", does that mean you think they would be making a mistake?
To embrace a Christian ethical system while rejecting God would have merits to it because it does affirm some very fundamental truths, but it is also somewhat off... For instance, if you believed there is no God, many of the more rigid and demanding concepts of sexual chastity and commands to forgive absolutely everyone, love your enemies, etc., would not intuitively make sense.
@philokalia saidSo you don't think that non-believers internalize and apply norms and values from the Christian-oriented culture they live in?
To embrace a Christian ethical system while rejecting God would have merits to it because it does affirm some very fundamental truths, but it is also somewhat off... For instance, if you believed there is no God, many of the more rigid and demanding concepts of sexual chastity and commands to forgive absolutely everyone, love your enemies, etc., would not intuitively make sense.
@philokalia saidI am asking the question that I posted. You don't have to answer it if you'd rather not.
Are you asking...
Do God's decrees make sense for a godless universe?
@philokalia saidThe people in the question I asked do not "know there is no God". They simply don't believe the story that claims Jesus rose from the dead.
I think that, if I knew there was no God
@fmf saidIt doesn't matter to the overall truth value. But...
So you don't think that non-believers internalize and apply norms and values from the Christian-oriented culture they live in?
If you believed there was no God, wouldn't you want to do so boldly and consciously, shedding off things cultural aspects that are part of untrue superstitions that you reject..?