Originally posted by whodey I think the very concepts of heaven and hell necessitate an air of exclusiveness. In the end you will have some that make it and some that do not. It then boils down to by what criterea we make it or do not. How then, in your opinion, is such criterea determained?
There is no way around this delimma of exclusiveness except by saying that either everyo o way around it, exclusiveness breeds offense. In fact, many were offended at Christs message.
Now it seems you ARE saying "that the only way to God in these times is to declare oneself a Christian".
If this is the case then the following question still stands:
What are the commandments that Jesus wanted observed?
or again
What did Jesus say he wanted man to do?
Originally posted by frogstomp "Get thee behind me, Satan:thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."
who said that? to who? and why?
Just spit it out man. Why must you be so criptic? Or perhaps the proper response is "Get thee behind me Satan; thou art an offence unto me; for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." After all, you can't imporve upon perfection. 😛
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne Now it seems you ARE saying "that the only way to God in these times is to declare oneself a Christian".
If this is the case then the following question still stands:
What are the commandments that Jesus wanted observed?
or again
What did Jesus say he wanted man to do?
Why are you avoiding the above question?
Well Christ said to do many things. I assume you are only interested in what he commands us to do in order to be "saved", however. Perhaps we should start at the greatest commandment and that is to love your neighbor as yourself and to love the Lord your God with all of your heart. Then in 1 John 5:3 we see that if we truly love God with all of our heart then we will attempt to keep his commandments and even though it may be difficult at times it is not burdensome because we do so because we love him.
Christ said in Matthew 22:37 that we are to love God with all of our heart and all of our soul, and with all of our mind. He said that upon this commandment hangs all of the laws of the prophets. You would say that Christ is merely the representation of such love, however, Christ then says something interesting. In Matthew 10:37 we see Christ saying that anyone who loves mother, father, sister, brother, child, etc. more than him is not worthy of him. For me this correlates with the commandment to love God above all else. He then says some other disturbing things for those who do not believe his sacrifice is vital for their salvation. In Matthew 26:28 Jesus commands his disciples to take the Eucharist and tells them that the bread is his body and the wine represents his blood which is poured out for the forgiveness of sins. In Matthew 20:28 Christ said that he came not to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. Ransom for what? So if these are his commandments and teachings what say you?
Originally posted by whodey Just spit it out man. Why must you be so criptic? Or perhaps the proper response is "Get thee behind me Satan; thou art an offence unto me; for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." After all, you can't imporve upon perfection. 😛
Why do you say he was being cryptic , and why can't you answer a simple question?
Originally posted by frogstomp Why do you say he was being cryptic , and why can't you answer a simple question?u
Well, it might help if you give a verse with these quotes but it sounds like Christ being tempted in the wilderness answering Lucifers advances. Am I correct oh cryptic one?
I use the word cryptic because you seem to want to ask an X number of questions before getting to the real question that you seem to have. Whatever that is?
Originally posted by whodey Well, it might help if you give a verse with these quotes but it sounds like Christ being tempted in the wilderness answering Lucifers advances. Am I correct oh cryptic one?
I use the word cryptic because you seem to want to ask an X number of questions before getting to the real question that you seem to have. Whatever that is?
Originally posted by frogstomp Do you think Peter was Lucifer?
OK, so I have swallowed your bait. No, I would not say that, however, I would say that perhaps he was influenced by Lucifer to say that. Again, what is your point?
Originally posted by whodey OK, so I have swallowed your bait. No, I would not say that, however, I would say that perhaps he was influenced by Lucifer to say that. Again, what is your point?
So Christ was influenced by Lucifer at that time , but not earlier in the desert?
Originally posted by frogstomp So Christ was influenced by Lucifer at that time , but not earlier in the desert?
Ok, lets get the scriptures in order shall we? In Matthew 16:22 we see Christ right before he goes to the cross and Peter saying "Heaven preserve you Lord". At this time Christ knew his hour had come to go to the cross and Peter was saying otherwise. This was a time of temptation for Christ because he in no way wanted to go to the cross. Likewise in the desert Christ was being tempted by Lucifer in his weakened state in the wilderness and Christ answered saying that thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
The question should be - Why was Christ crusified?
Christ is not dead as his work and spirit can be seen all over this great planet.
After he was crucified he was seen by many people at the time, not everyone, but the select few. These were the people he wanted to go forth and spread God's word and do his work. The fact that most of the disciples went off to the far corners of the known world and spread his teachings, and then in many cases were put to death is significant. If any of us saw someone publically executed, a person who we knew, and then a short time later he came and spoke to us, then we would understand, as the early disciples did, that Jesus was the son of God, and we would be prepared to go and implement his will, even at the cost of our own lives.
As for why was Christ crucified, then that is a different question.
Originally posted by whodey Well Christ said to do many things. I assume you are only interested in what he commands us to do in order to be "saved", however. Perhaps we should start at the greatest commandment and that is to love your neighbor as yourself and to love the Lord your God with all of your heart. Then in 1 John 5:3 we see that if we truly love God with all of our heart t ...[text shortened]... nsom for many. Ransom for what? So if these are his commandments and teachings what say you?
If one comes to repentance and lives a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc., is he not observing the commandments given by Jesus? Has he not found his way to God?
Originally posted by vistesd There seems to be a tendency in “theologies of the cross” to skip over the incarnation—as if that was just a way to get to the cross and resurrection. If that was the case, the Logos could have simply become miraculously incarnate as a thirty-something adult...
Without taking away the symbolism of the cross per se, the logos tou theou cannot be t ...[text shortened]... lot of Christians calling for his head. He really wouldn’t be less of a skandalon today.
I think a few humanists would also be calling for His head.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne If one comes to repentance and lives a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc., is he not observing the commandments given by Jesus? Has he not found his way to God?
I see nothing here that would preclude this.
None of us have walked in love all the time. All have sinned and fallen short except for Christ. Perhaps we both agree, I don't know. As Christ has said, he gave his life for a ransom. A ransom for what? If all that was necessary is saying "I'm sorry God" and walking in love the best we can, why did Christ have to give his life as a ransom on the cross? It seems to me that the whole episode was an entire waste of time if his sacrifice were not needed for justification before God.
Originally posted by whodey None of us have walked in love all the time. All have sinned and fallen short except for Christ. Perhaps we both agree, I don't know. As Christ has said, he gave his life for a ransom. A ransom for what? If all that was necessary is saying "I'm sorry God" and walking in love the best we can, why did Christ have to give his life as a ransom on the cross? ...[text shortened]... e was an entire waste of time if his sacrifice were not needed for justification before God.
What is necessary is repentance, which goes beyond "walking in love the best we can". Perhaps Christ paid a ransom so that repentance is enough to pay the penalty of sin. However, it does not necessarily follow that Christianity is the only way to God.
Once again, if one comes to repentance and lives a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc., is he not observing the commandments given by Jesus? Has he not found his way to God?
Why did Christ die?
19 May '07 16:342 edits
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