Why did Christ die?

Originally posted by frogstomp
Beware of the man with only one book.

You enjoy your day, too.

Beware of the evasive man.

Originally posted by jaywill
Beware of the evasive man.

seek it for yourself, that's my advice.
btw , he said more than what the censors permitted in the NT.

Originally posted by whodey
Ok kids. For all of you who do not think that Christ is the only way to God, why then did Christ say that he laid down his life for us? I mean, what was the purpose if there were a number of equal or better choices? Did he do it for kicks? If Christ were only but one of many prophets of God and nothing more, why did he lay down his life? For what?

Christ died to pay for the penalty of sin for the whole world. You are correct in saying that OT believers were saved as well. They were saved looking forward to the promise by faith. We are saved looking back at the promise, also by faith. But the actual death happened because the price had to be paid, period. The fact that God "raised" Christ from the dead serves as His acceptance of the sacrafice. Their is legal and detailed implications of this matter in Hebrews chapter 9....check it out.🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Christ died to pay for the penalty of sin for the whole world. You are correct in saying that OT believers were saved as well. They were saved looking forward to the promise by faith. We are saved looking back at the promise, also by faith. But the actual death happened because the price had to be paid, period. The fact that God "raised" Christ from the ...[text shortened]... heir is legal and detailed implications of this matter in Hebrews chapter 9....check it out.🙂

I agree with this post completely. But I would like to add other vital reasons for Christ being resurrected.

In addition to the resurrection as proof of the Father's acceptance of Christ's redemptive death for our sins, is His resurrection for the impartation of Himself into man's being.

Jesus Christ can now live in us to be our life because He raised from the dead ot become a life giving Spirit,

"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

If Christ only redeems us with His death and that is all the purpose of God is not accomplished. He must impart the resurrection life as the Spirit of Christ into man's innermost being to regenerate man.

What good is forgiven people who still live the same life? Are they just suppose to try harder? Are they just suppose to attempt to do better?

Christ became a life giving Spirit to dispense God's life and nature into man that we could become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4)

We the believers in Christ have been "regenerated ... unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead" (1 Peter 1:3) His resurrection is the cause of man's new birth in spirit. He resurrection is the catalyst for the believer's regeneration. And His resurrection impart the divine power that grants the believer all things which pertain to life and godliness:

" ... His divine power has granted yo us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the full knowledge of Him who has called us to His own glory and virtue" (2 Peter 1:3)

Actually His Spirit contains the effectiveness of His death. And in His Spirit is the killing power which can kill off all of the germs of degradation which swarm in man. In His life giving Spirit is the killing off power which can cross out all of the fallen elements of our damaged being.

The effectiveness of both Christ's death and resurrection are ingredients within the Spirit of Christ. When we experience this killing off power and this life imparting power we are assured that it is really true that He is the Son of God and rose to live in us.

The experience of Christ is what so powerefully affirms to the believer that s/he is on the right track. We see Him working within with His killing off power and His life imparting power. We see the work of the life giving Spirit and we know that the gospel must be true. As John wrote:

"And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us." (1 John 3:24b)

Originally posted by jaywill
I agree with this post completely. But I would like to add other vital reasons for Christ being resurrected.

In addition to the resurrection as proof of the Father's acceptance of Christ's redemptive death for our sins, is His resurrection for the impartation of Himself into man's being.

Jesus Christ can now live in us to be our life because He rais ...[text shortened]... ow that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us." (1 John 3:24b)[/b]

I agree. We must put off the sinful nature and put on the new nature. Neither, can be totally accomplished until Christ's return. But for now we continue to be transformed by the renewing of the mind as we study the bible. It is not something that happens by osmosis. We make a deliberate act, to study, obey and "do" what God has promised and commands, then we see results. We can then become more and more like Christ in our daily walk. We become more than conquerers though Christ, and shine brighter for God, and the world as we grow. 🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I agree. We must put off the sinful nature and put on the new nature. Neither, can be totally accomplished until Christ's return. But for now we continue to be transformed by the renewing of the mind as we study the bible. It is not something that happens by osmosis. We make a deliberate act, to study, obey and "do" what God has promised and commands, th ...[text shortened]... more than conquerers though Christ, and shine brighter for God, and the world as we grow. 🙂

Yes, and you know what ?

It is this renewing and transforming which is the catalyst to bring the Lord Jesus physically back to the earth.

The preparation of the Bride is the matter which woos the Lord back to come to get her. The Bride perparing herself tugs at the heart of Jesus Christ to return.

If a remnant move forward in this transformation and renewing they will bring the Lord back to the earth. This is such a high calling that we could hasten the coming again of Christ. Because He is "the desire of the nations". He is the one who will bring in peace and justice and renewal to the earth.

The skeptics mock us. Yet those who really care about the earth will long to do their part to bring the Lord Jesus again by giving themselves to be transformed for the building up of the Bride and Wife of the Lamb.

We can do our part by allowing Christ to first come within us. He is coming from within and matching that with His coming from without.

My prayer is "Lord transform me for your coming again. Give me this day's proper amount of sanctification and transformation into your image."

Originally posted by jaywill
Yes, and you know what ?

It is this renewing and transforming which is the catalyst to bring the Lord Jesus physically back to the earth.

The preparation of the Bride is the matter which woos the Lord back to come to get her. The Bride perparing herself tugs at the heart of Jesus Christ to return.

If a remnant move forward in this transfo ...[text shortened]... in. Give me this day's proper amount of sanctification and transformation into your image."

I disagree , God's Will will come to pass, regardless of what man does or does not do.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I disagree , God's Will will come to pass, regardless of what man does or does not do.

Don't you think that God wants men and women on the earth to correspond to His will?

Don't you think the record of the Bible shows Him moving in coordination with a cooperative and obedient people on the earth?

Originally posted by jaywill
Don't you think that God wants men and women on the earth to correspond to His will?

Don't you think the record of the Bible shows Him moving in coordination with a cooperative and obedient people on the earth?

Say some more about your last sentence.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Say some more about your last sentence.

It is true that man has no part in the initial creation of the universe. That part of God's will was upon Him alone.

But God placed Adam before the tree of life and gave him to choose. If Adam chose the tree of life God's economy and plan would move forward. Adam made the choice to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And God's purpose was temporarily set aside.

This is my initial example to demonstrate that God desired a man on the earth to echo His desire. That is to have a heart that corresponded to the will of God that man be filled with the divine life from the tree of life.

God did not move much without the obedience of Noah.
God did not move without the obedience of Abraham. God did not move without the obedience of Jacob. God moved in conjuction with the faith and obedience of Moses and the Israelites.
God did not move much without the obedience of Samuel and David.

At one point God tells man to command Himself concerning His own will.

Finally we see Jesus the man mingled with God. From the beginning God wanted to dispense His uncreated life into man's created life so that the Divine Being and the created human being could move in perfect harmony.

He will not unilaterally accomplish all His will without man's consent. He must secure for Himself at least a remnant who are united with Him and mingled with Him and are a channel through which He moves on the earth.

This includes the second coming of Christ as well. He will not return without the consent and cooperation of a remnant of His people on the earth.

God wants a man on the earth to echo His divine will. When He finds a people who echo His will, then He will act.

I think the most crucial elements of His desire He does not do unilaterally. He wants people on the earth to ask Him first. Then He answers their prayer which expresses His will which He has put on thier hearts.

Originally posted by jaywill
Don't you think that God wants men and women on the earth to correspond to His will?

Don't you think the record of the Bible shows Him moving in coordination with a cooperative and obedient people on the earth?

Yes, of course, to the first part...no to the second part. While I respect your beliefs, I have to disagree. The early church, that is, in America, believed the same thing. They believed America would be like a "city on a hill" lit up as a beacon to the world. While this is a good thing, and pleasing to God, I do not believe a people will usher in the second coming. It is all in the Father's hands. Man cannot "will" the coming of Christ. God will bring His will to pass, regardless.

Isa 46:9-10
9 Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,'
(NKJ)

God will do all His pleasure. No one will slow Him down nor speed Him up....besides, logic alone says the world is getting worse by the minute. The bible says it too...

2 Tim 3:12-13
12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
(NKJ)


2 Tim 3:1-5

1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
(NKJ)

Originally posted by jaywill
It is true that man has no part in the initial creation of the universe. That part of God's will was upon Him alone.

But God placed Adam before the tree of life and gave him to choose. If Adam chose the tree of life God's economy and plan would move forward. Adam made the choice to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And God's purpose w ...[text shortened]... st. Then He answers their prayer which expresses His will which He has put on thier hearts.

You cite Noah as an example, but doesn't that passage really show that Noah's faith was rather isolated?

So I imagine that there are plenty of people on earth who "echo his will". Why not now?

Originally posted by kirksey957
You cite Noah as an example, but doesn't that passage really show that Noah's faith was rather isolated?

So I imagine that there are plenty of people on earth who "echo his will". Why not now?

You cite Noah as an example, but doesn't that passage really show that Noah's faith was rather isolated?

Noah, and I would include also the entire eight persons in the ark.

Suppose Noah not obeyed by faith. One might say that God would bring the flood anyway. But then who would be left to propogate the new earth?

Was God's purpose only to wipe out all people from the earth? I think we have to admit that He desired to make a new beginning.

Therefore Noah facilitated a way for God to fulfill His will.


So I imagine that there are plenty of people on earth who "echo his will". Why not now?

There is no reason why not now.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]You cite Noah as an example, but doesn't that passage really show that Noah's faith was rather isolated?

Noah, and I would include also the entire eight persons in the ark.

Suppose Noah not obeyed by faith. One might say that God would bring the flood anyway. But then who would be left to propogate the new earth?

Was God's purpo ...[text shortened]... eople on earth who "echo his will". Why not now? [/b]

There is no reason why not now.[/b]

You know that part of the story where Noah gets drunk and exposes himself? Do you wonder if God was thinking, "Oh crap, it just doesn't get any better, does it?"

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Yes, of course, to the first part...no to the second part. While I respect your beliefs, I have to disagree. The early church, that is, in America, believed the same thing. They believed America would be like a "city on a hill" lit up as a beacon to the world. While this is a good thing, and pleasing to God, I do not believe a people will usher in the se having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
(NKJ)

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Yes, of course, to the first part...no to the second part. While I respect your beliefs, I have to disagree. The early church, that is, in America, believed the same thing.
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I don't think that this proves that God does not need man to cooperate. It may prove that man is fallible and often gets off the track of cooperation with God.

But we knew that from the pages of the Scripture, didn't we? For example the generation of Israelites who came out of Egypt. Of that generation only Joshua and Caleb entered into the good land according to God's plan.

Even Moses was excluded. So I think your example only demonstrates that such cooperation is a battle that the people of God do not always sustain victory.

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They believed America would be like a "city on a hill" lit up as a beacon to the world. While this is a good thing, and pleasing to God, I do not believe a people will usher in the second coming. It is all in the Father's hands. Man cannot "will" the coming of Christ. God will bring His will to pass, regardless.
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The Apostle Peter does say that God's people are expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God:

"Since all these things are to be this dissolved, what kind of persons ought you to be in holy manner of life and godliness - expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God ..."(2 Peter 3:11,12)

It could have been enough for Peter to simply say "expecting". The fact that he adds "and hastening" indicates to some of us that our cooperation and prayer for God to fulfill His will plays a part.

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Isa 46:9-10
9 Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,'
(NKJ) ++++++++++++++++++++

This only says that God will certainly fulfill His counsel and it will stand. I don't think we should read into this passage that His counsel does not include working in coordination with His people.

I think your reluctance to adopt such a position may be that it will cause us to be presumptous. Though the danger is there we must overcome that danger.

God brought the people out of Egypt to bring them into the good land of Canaan to build for Himself a house. The first generation failed. The second generation plus Joshua and Caleb obeyed in faith and facilitated a way for God to accomplish His will.

Sure His counsel DID indeed stand. I agree. But He worked through the army of Jehovah under the faithful leadership of Joshua. It is through many failures that God's people do finally harmonize with the will of God.

The Apostle writes "For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13)

God is operating in His people for the willing and the working for His good pleasure.

Did you ever take notice of this passage in Isaiah?

"Thus says Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:

Ask Me of the things to come: concerning my sons, and concerning the work of My hands, command Me." (Isaiah 45:11)

Do you see God commanding man not only to ask Him concerning His sons. He also tells man to command Him (Jehovah) concerning the work of His hands.

In the New Testament we see Christ telling the disciples who abide in Him to ask whatever they will and it will be done for them. THis should not be taken ask a frivolous asking of minor things for personal gratifiation, i.e I ask for a new car, you ask for a higher paying job, she asks for a new house, etc. etc.

This prayer, I believe, is a asking for God to fulfill His eternal purpose. Abiding in Him should result in being one with the divine will and finally asking God to fulfill what He wills, which has now also become what His people will.

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God will do all His pleasure. No one will slow Him down nor speed Him up....besides, logic alone says the world is getting worse by the minute. The bible says it too...
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I agree that we cannot stop Him. We can slow Him down. This is evident from the history of the Bible. Especially in the great lesson of the Israelites. It should take only 11 days to march from Egypt into Canaan. They slowed it down to 40 years. But from God's side it should only take 11 days.

Clearly, the disbelief of the people prolonged the time and postponed the entry into the good land.

Another example - We are told that Christ's coming is to take place after the gospel of the kingdom is preached in all the world. So if we do not preach the gospel in all the world will Christ come regardless?

Our cooperation is needed. But our cooperation should be in Him, by His power and not in our own power. Our cooperation is under His authority and in the realm and sphere of His life.

Do not take what I said to mean the in the Adamic nature we can perform the will of God.

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2 Tim 3:12-13
12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
(NKJ)
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This verse has little do with the subject of God working in harmony and through His people. This verse only tells us of the dreadful conditions of society close to the time of His return.

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2 Tim 3:1-5

1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
(NKJ)
++++++++++++++++++++++++

Likewise, this passage only tells us of the dreadful conditions of society at the end times. It says nothing at all about God not needing His people to cooperate with His will.

They are both important passages. But they do not really prove that God wants to or will fulfill His purpose without the coordination of His people.

Why do you think He prepares a cooperate Body for Christ? It is so that Christ can be expressed on the earth. It is so that the Head may direct the members to perform the will of the Head. One coordinated Body of Christ to carry out the will of the Father.

Did you think that God prepares the Body of Christ only that we may be yanked away into heaven?