Why didn't their prayers save the Jews?

Originally posted by whodey
This is the chapter in Revelation that I was referencing, Revelation 12

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"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of 12 stars. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to b ...[text shortened]... which is my eternal destiny. In fact, I'll even draw the line across my neck if they like.

Bravo. I can't disagree with any of this.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
it's is a sad and deceitful god that you worship, one who backpedals on his covenant.

he sounds more like lord vader:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsW9MlYu31g

"i'm altering the deal, pray i do not alter it any further."

that's the god you worship.

sure you can now instruct God, certainly your megalomania knows no bounds.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
-if you can show that jesus was going through physical suffering during the time he prayed to be spared, by all means do so.
-if you can show that jesus did not pray to be spared, by all means do so.

otherwise, your case is completely dismantled.

no provisos for you, here are your words,

he wasn't going through any suffering at that time - void spirit

when Christ literally sweated blood due to the stress he was under, it would appear to
any reasonable and honest person that he was suffering, anyone is free to read the
account for themselves and draw their own conclusion with regard to the integrity of
your statement, i dont need to draw attention to its absurd nature again and again for
truth has a potency all of its own.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you're welcome to think what you like, i'll stick with what the scriptures say, and they say jesus prayed to be spared. nothing else is relevant to this point.

you're welcome to think what you like,

Yes.

i'll stick with what the scriptures say, and they say jesus prayed to be spared.

I never argued that. I simply pointed out his psychological suffering in the garden, whereas I think you said He was not suffering there.

I don't call that "sticking with the Scripture" on your part. I call that hunting for sensational "bombs" to drop on fundies based on something much less than careful reading of the Scripture.

I think you just like to be sensational - ie. "Oh, Jesus wasn't suffering in that garden."

Now, as for your other sensational bombshell. My, my! Jesus prayed to be spared.

Actually, He did pray that the cup would pass from Him if possible. But, with two caveats which I think are important.

1.) He prayed to be saved "OUT of death." Which is a strong indication that He prayed that if He should die God the Father would RESURRECT Him out of death.

The petition to be saved OUT OF DEATH is different from the petition to be saved FROM death.

Yes, He did pray that the awful cup might pass from Him. And probably that cup was execution, torture, and death. However, Scripture, which you say you want to follow, also says He prayed to be saved "OUT OF DEATH" in Hebrews 5:7 -

"This One, in the days of His flesh, having offered up both petitions and supplications with strong crying and tears to Him who was able to save Him out of death and having been heard because of His piety."

These strong cryings and petitions of Jesus to be saved OUT of death were probably not limited to the garden of Gethsemene prayers. But we know that He was heard and answered in the affimative through His resurrection from the dead.

His petitions to be saved OUT of the realm of the dead is also confirmedd by the prophetic word applied to Him of David's prophetic prayer:

"Therefore, [David] being a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him to seat One from the fruit of his loins upon his throne,

He seing this beforehand, spoke concerning the reusrrection of the Christ, that neither was He abandoned to Hades, mor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus has God raised up ... " (Acts 2:30,31,32a)

The prophetic prayer is recorded in verse 26 - "Therefore my heart was made glad and my tongue exulted; moreover, also my flesh will rest in hope, BECAUSE ... You [God] will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You permit Your Holy One to see corruption." (v.26,27)

The Son of God requested to be saved out of death, out of Hades, and out of being corrupted in the rottenesss of physical decay resulting from death.

2.) If you examine the Gethsemene prayer carefully what Jesus ultimately prayed for was the WILL of God to be done, no more and no less.

"Yet not as I will but as You will".

This means that if it was the WILL of the Father to be spared from death, He wanted to be spared from death according to the Father's WILL.

Conversely, if it was the WILL of the Father to die, He wanted to die according to the WILL of the Father.

What He, as a man wanted, was secondary, whether to live or to die. What was primary was that it would not be His will that would be done, but the Father's will.

If it had been the Father's will that the Son NOT die, the Son would not have rebelled against that Divine Will to be martyred anyway.

"Not as I will, but as You will."

That is the real essence of all of Christ's petitions in the garden of Gethsemene and throughout His whole life.

nothing else is relevant to this point.

This is what you wrote:

he wasn't going through any suffering at that time. this prayer to be spared was made before the betrayal.

You, I do believe, made A point about Jesus not suffering in the garden. Scripture corrects your erroneous point. His soul was sorrowful even unto death.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no provisos for you, here are your words,

he wasn't going through any suffering at that time - void spirit

when Christ literally sweated blood due to the stress he was under, it would appear to
any reasonable and honest person that he was suffering, anyone is free to read the
account for themselves and draw their own conclusion with regar ...[text shortened]... o draw attention to its absurd nature again and again for
truth has a potency all of its own.

okay, i see you can provide absolutely no evidence to counter what i said. i'll therefore rest my case with a victory. no point in arguing this point with you any further.

Originally posted by jaywill
I never argued that. I simply pointed out his psychological suffering in the garden, whereas I think you said He was not suffering there.

the problem is that what i have said is being taken out of the context of the discussion to which i was responding.

i did say he wasn't suffering there, and i said it in response to someone's claim that he was going through "mental and physical suffering" and by which he was most likely referring to events that occurred after the garden scene.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
the problem is that what i have said is being taken out of the context of the discussion to which i was responding.

i did say he wasn't suffering there, and i said it in response to someone's claim that he was going through "mental and physical suffering" and by which he was most likely referring to events that occurred after the garden scene.

the problem is that what i have said is being taken out of the context of the discussion to which i was responding.

Maybe it was a side point and not your major point.

i did say he wasn't suffering there, and i said it in response to someone's claim that he was going through "mental and physical suffering" and by which he was most likely referring to events that occurred after the garden scene.

How odd of god to choose the Jews.
But not so odd as those who choose
A Jewish god but spurn the Jews!

Actually the answer is that religion breeds bigotry and, in actuality, there is now god!

Six million Jews died in WWII, but so did 14 million other people. God (if there is one) certainly did not answer their prayers either.

The only reference I can find of the Jews in the Bible was when an evil spirirt was cast out of a man and into a herd of pigs which ran off a cliff and killed the lot of them. This made my day. 🙂.

Originally posted by skillset
The only reference I can find of the Jews in the Bible was when an evil spirirt was cast out of a man and into a herd of pigs which ran off a cliff and killed the lot of them. This made my day. 🙂.

it made your day that a herd of pigs were killed or that you could only find one reference of jews in the bible?

how hard did you actually look for that reference?

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
how hard did you actually look for that reference?

He's got his work cut out thinking up new screen names.

Originally posted by skillset
The only reference I can find of the Jews in the Bible was when an evil spirirt was cast out of a man and into a herd of pigs which ran off a cliff and killed the lot of them. This made my day. 🙂.

I think the Lord has a good sense of humor. HalleluYah !!! 😀

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think the Lord has a good sense of humor. HalleluYah !!! 😀

Well as you have so aptly demonstrated your sense of humour (and taste) is absent or vile.
So you are no good judge.

Causing a heard? of pigs to charge over a cliff in panic is not funny, it's cruel and evil.
Which fits because by any decent standard so is the god of the bible.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Well as you have so aptly demonstrated your sense of humour (and taste) is absent or vile.
So you are no good judge.

Causing a heard? of pigs to charge over a cliff in panic is not funny, it's cruel and evil.
Which fits because by any decent standard so is the god of the bible.

It was a herd of pigs, not a heard of pigs. Now that's funny too. 😀