Why do the Christians care?

I guess, when simplified, the only difference between our beliefs is that I believe that God has revealed Himself to us.

I guess you could say so but I hadn’t really thought of it that way. But I think if we talk more about it, we might be a bit more different than just that. Example: As far as abortion goes, I am Pro-choice but let me explain myself:

I do in my heart of hearts believe abortion is murder without question. In my own personal situation, it would be highly unlikely that I would want to abort my child but I would like the option open. I don’t believe it is my right to tell another person how to live in that respect and, if there is a God like the one you believe in, that person will be judged severely for their actions. Now I don’t know your position on abortion but many Christians tend to be Pro-Life, understandably.

I just personally find faith in Christ to supply so many answers in life to questions that would otherwise have driven me crazy.

Sure and I guess for me I found the opposite in not just Christianity but other beliefs I have explored that I am most comfortable in not attaching myself to any of them. Maybe I am the crazier one?🙄

Originally posted by Palynka
[b]I think Free Will could exist without the possibility of evil.

I disagree.

In a world without evil (evil defined as in the GAFE), there are no choices left to the individual. For each choice A, there cannot be a choice B where the result would be better than A. Therefore, there cannot be any choice in such a world.

Besides that, a world witho ...[text shortened]... being taken. Where's the free-will if every action A must necessarily be chosen and is chosen?[/b]

You know how people talk about the lesser of two evils? What about the lesser of two goods? There are times where you have choices neither of which causes suffering, but one is nicer than the others. And not everything is as clear cut as good and evil. What about cutting down forests to build homes or to get oil. It destroys nature but helps humans, it seems that either decision is both good and evil. Not the best example ever but you get my point.

Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
You know how people talk about the lesser of two evils? What about the lesser of two goods? There are times where you have choices neither of which causes suffering, but one is nicer than the others. And not everything is as clear cut as good and evil. What about cutting down forests to build homes or to get oil. It destroys nature but helps human ...[text shortened]... ems that either decision is both good and evil. Not the best example ever but you get my point.

I get your point, but the lesser of two goods implies there are even worse evils. My point is that if there weren't any worse evils, that lesser of two goods will be seen as evil, since it is a worst case scenario. Evil and good are perspectives relative to one another, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]Sorry for the long delays between posts, a combination of your questions being a lot of food for thought and lack of time...

Ditto but I have had the time just the amount of pain and pain medication I have been on has taken its toll.

Ouch. Mine were taken out as a 4/5 year old kid, so all I can remember is the two days in hospital that felt ...[text shortened]... think this is the roadblock for us for reasons we have went though here throughout this thread.

Yeah but, again, we are God’s children and in essence they were practically “newborn”.
[/b]
I believe that they were created mature, just like the rest of the universe. Fruit in the trees; Light from the billion light years away stars etc.

Again, if I were God and in the above described scenario, the concept of evil would be kept to Myself and not my creation, man. But okay, let’s say I would give man the knowledge of Good and Evil? There would be no capacity in my creation of man for man to commit it. It would be the same as man unable to breathe without air. Man can think about not breathing but really is not capable of successfully stopping breathing. Man could think about evil but my creation of Man would make it physically impossible to commit any evil act. Funny thing is I think most sane, moral men (Christian and Non-Christian alike) are this way for the most part and do not commit evil.

Fair enough. I just believe that the freedom of choice to commit good or evil is just as necissary as the choice to obey God.

I don’t see the above quote as fair but I see it as very grim repercussions for a selfish mistake.

Sure. I think that before God though disobedience is disobedience. As to a morally perfect God meeting out punishment, would you say that punishment is a moral consequence?

I guess I disagree. By God allowing for Evil to exist, then I think most definitely He has put his seal of approval on it. He has created all things, all conditions and, theoretically, He could wipe them out within a heartbeat.

True. Then He would have to allow them for a reason.

I am not implying that God necessarily enjoys “evil” but I honestly don’t think God considers or rewards good deeds more than bad deeds.

I beg to differ, I have been on the recieving end of Gods blessings. Good health. Stable family. Roof over my head. Food on the table. While I don't necessarily consider myself as a good person, that is the direction I strive to. I'm not the type to jump on people when they have illness, and say that they have sinned or that God is trying to tell them something, but personally I have found meanig in hardship.

I’ve talked about this in another thread but I believe a person who is commonly considered as evil (i.e. Hitler, Pol Pot, Jeffrey Dalmer, Timothy McVey, etc) does not see themselves as evil but more so as a patriot of their “good cause” and they commit atrocious acts against humanity for their “cause”.

Sure. Although accassionally the "good cause" is a selfish one. I'd guess that the rapist we talked about earlier would fall into this category.

Hitler thought the Jews were the anti-christ. If there were a race of people or a species today that we knew conclusively were the anti-christ (without any doubt) I imagine we would go after them much in the same manner Hitler did.

I might be wrong, but I always thought that Hitler believed and perhaps perverted the ("evolutionary" - debatable) view that German's etc were Aryans and superior to other races (i.e more evolved), and that Jews, Blacks and Asians forming the bottom of the pecking order. Purifying Europe of their foul presence was the next logical step for him.

If there were a race of people or a species today that we knew conclusively were the anti-christ (without any doubt) I imagine we would go after them much in the same manner Hitler did.

I guess, although I personally believe that Human life is sacred, God being the only one to give and take life, and therefore killing innocent life would be morally wrong for me.

I think you are right but I think this epiphany does not necessarily only occur once but more so several perhaps many times in a person’s life.

Right. That's why I believe that even the worst person in society is not past saving. That is the beauty of it for me. Even though one might commited the worst attrocities (Hitler etc being included here), God is still willing and waiting to forgive, if only He was asked to.

I think it is a moment of clarity and an often too quick of a glimpse of what is real in the world. It maybe God confronts his lost sheep or perhaps the sheep stare at themselves in the mirror. I think the most important thing is the self realization one has whether it is guided by God or not.

Sure.

Again you might be right but I think it is hard to make a blanket statement that people would abandon God when the world is perfect for them. I do think many do but I also think many abandon God in their darkest hour simply because they blame God for their darkest hour.

That's very true. I know of quite a few people like that. In one situation though, it was because the solution was not what that person selfishly wanted.

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

My interpretation: God will forgive all

...who are broken in spirit and are sincere in heart. (My interpretation ) 🙂

Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

My interpretation: God is watching those that both fear and respect Him. I don’t necessarily agree with that because I don’t think if God created us we are meant to live in fear of Him.

A healthy fear is always good though. Just like kids should have a healthy fear of their father.

That doesn’t mean I go out and try to be a jerk to as many people as I can but I think there are a lot of folks who try to “buy” their way into Heaven and I can’t see that happening either.

True. If you had to buy your way into heaven, then our salvation has to be earned.

Nor have I but does that mean because a person does not offer up their life as a missionary they are not a good person?

No I'm wasn't implying that in the least. One can be a good person having just about any occupation... maybe excluding prostitution and cat burglary. 😛

Isn’t what some of these people do an offering of self sacrifice for mankind?

Absolutely.

I do in my heart of hearts believe abortion is murder without question. In my own personal situation, it would be highly unlikely that I would want to abort my child but I would like the option open. I don’t believe it is my right to tell another person how to live in that respect and, if there is a God like the one you believe in, that person will be judged severely for their actions. Now I don’t know your position on abortion but many Christians tend to be Pro-Life, understandably.

I'm Pro-Life. I believe that human life is sacred and as such, God should be the only one to take it. I just don't see birth as being such a "mystical" barier, where on one side you are human, and on the other side some blob of tissue.

Sure and I guess for me I found the opposite in not just Christianity but other beliefs I have explored that I am most comfortable in not attaching myself to any of them. Maybe I am the crazier one?

No I don't think you're crazy. The leap of faith is on my side. I pray that you will eventually find what you are looking for.

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]Yeah but, again, we are God’s children and in essence they were practically “newborn”.
[/b]
I believe that they were created mature, just like the rest of the universe. Fruit in the trees; Light from the billion light years away stars etc.

Again, if I were God and in the above described scenario, the concept of evil would be kept to Myself a ...[text shortened]... The leap of faith is on my side. I pray that you will eventually find what you are looking for.

Fair enough. I just believe that the freedom of choice to commit good or evil is just as necessary as the choice to obey God.

I can see where the same rationale, if I were a religious person, would apply. Good point.

Sure. I think that before God though disobedience is disobedience. As to a morally perfect God meeting out punishment, would you say that punishment is a moral consequence?

Not sure because, again, I believe God created all of the scenarios and the possibilities of man therefore isn’t God ultimately responsible? Isn’t God, in a sense, punishing Himself?

I beg to differ, I have been on the receiving end of Gods blessings. Good health. Stable family. Roof over my head. Food on the table. While I don't necessarily consider myself as a good person, that is the direction I strive to. I'm not the type to jump on people when they have illness, and say that they have sinned or that God is trying to tell them something, but personally I have found meaning in hardship.

Well I think most people, including myself, tend to think you are a pretty good person for sacrificing yourself in the manner in what you do for what you belief. I hate to say this but there have been a number of other popular Christian posters on this site that actually believe some tragic events (tsunami, Niger, etc) of recent are a result of these people not devoting themselves to the Christian God. I think all of us find our individual meaning throughout our own struggles in life.

Sure. Although occasionally the "good cause" is a selfish one. I'd guess that the rapist we talked about earlier would fall into this category.

Actually I don’t know if the rapist or some murderers like Dalmer would have called themselves a “patriot”? I guess they would because I think even the most insane of us does not commit a knowingly “evil” act. The rapist believes it is their “right” to rape. Dalmer thought he was “right” in what he did.

I might be wrong, but I always thought that Hitler believed and perhaps perverted the ("evolutionary" - debatable) view that German's etc were Aryans and superior to other races (i.e more evolved), and that Jews, Blacks and Asians forming the bottom of the pecking order. Purifying Europe of their foul presence was the next logical step for him.

Actually you might be right as I have not research the subject but I think the whole “righteousness” of what Hitler believed in still applies.

I guess, although I personally believe that Human life is sacred, God being the only one to give and take life, and therefore killing innocent life would be morally wrong for me.

I understand that and part of me wishes I was that way at times. But being a parent and hearing the atrocities that happen to children by psychos makes me want to be the executioner of the child rapists and murderers myself. I know it does not bring anyone back or change anything but I can’t believe that people of this type have a right to exist after committing such crimes.

Right. That's why I believe that even the worst person in society is not past saving. That is the beauty of it for me. Even though one might committed the worst atrocities (Hitler etc being included here), God is still willing and waiting to forgive, if only He was asked to.

Sure.

That's very true. I know of quite a few people like that. In one situation though, it was because the solution was not what that person selfishly wanted.

Right and that is probably what happens a great deal but what about that young girl you spoke of who contracted AIDS from the rape of her uncle? I don’t think it would have been out of the ordinary for her to curse God for her existence?

A healthy fear is always good though. Just like kids should have a healthy fear of their father.

Good point.

No I'm wasn't implying that in the least. One can be a good person having just about any occupation... maybe excluding prostitution and cat burglary.

I’m sorry if I came across as if you were implying that as that thought never occurred to me. You are probably right about the prostitution and burglary 😉

I'm Pro-Life. I believe that human life is sacred and as such, God should be the only one to take it. I just don't see birth as being such a "mystical" barier, where on one side you are human, and on the other side some blob of tissue.

Well I do agree with you and I think an argument can be made that even using contraception “could” be an indirect form of abortion but I am not for banning them either.

No I don't think you're crazy. The leap of faith is on my side. I pray that you will eventually find what you are looking for.

Thanks very much. I do appreciate that sincerely.

Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]Fair enough. I just believe that the freedom of choice to commit good or evil is just as necessary as the choice to obey God.

I can see where the same rationale, if I were a religious person, would apply. Good point.

Sure. I think that before God though disobedience is disobedience. As to a morally perfect God meeting out punishment, would ...[text shortened]... ntually find what you are looking for.

Thanks very much. I do appreciate that sincerely.[/b]

Not sure because, again, I believe God created all of the scenarios and the possibilities of man therefore isn’t God ultimately responsible? Isn’t God, in a sense, punishing Himself?

That sounds a bit like the Calvinist view, which I'm not too sure I entirely agree with. Maybe God installed the initial perfect parameters, knowing full well that with free will, man will wreck it. However there will also be millions throughout history who will choose to serve Him. God did not however abandon His creation, intervening most notably with Christ.

Well I think most people, including myself, tend to think you are a pretty good person for sacrificing yourself in the manner in what you do for what you belief.

Well, I still have my own demons to fight.

I hate to say this but there have been a number of other popular Christian posters on this site that actually believe some tragic events (tsunami, Niger, etc) of recent are a result of these people not devoting themselves to the Christian God.

Those events were tragedies. I can see where some of the Christians are coming from, because there have been times where God did indeed judge people for their sins. I, however don't know the hearts of the people in Asia and Niger, and would therefore not blame them for their hardship.

I think all of us find our individual meaning throughout our own struggles in life.

Absolutely. For the Christian, hardship is a time of identifying with the suffering of Christ.

Actually I don’t know if the rapist or some murderers like Dalmer would have called themselves a “patriot”? I guess they would because I think even the most insane of us does not commit a knowingly “evil” act. The rapist believes it is their “right” to rape. Dalmer thought he was “right” in what he did.

Sure. I, however think that God has given everybody a conscience that point out what is right and wrong. It is sort of like an inhibition, that if crossed enough times, it stops functioning on that level and then one can progressively do worse things without even caring. It like the first time one looks at Porn as a child. One is furtive and unsure, but it becomes easier to go more hard-core and even start acting out what you see. By this I'm not saying that all people who look at porn will eventually become rapists, because for some people the inhibition of actually performing what you look at is never crossed. It is however scary that with most serial rapists admit that the starting point of their progressive obsession started with porn.

I understand that and part of me wishes I was that way at times. But being a parent and hearing the atrocities that happen to children by psychos makes me want to be the executioner of the child rapists and murderers myself.

Sure. I sometimes feel the same way when I see some of the young boys who are HIV positive. This is more politics that spirituality, but I think that governments do have a God-given right of enforcing God's justice. A life for a life.

Right and that is probably what happens a great deal but what about that young girl you spoke of who contracted AIDS from the rape of her uncle? I don’t think it would have been out of the ordinary for her to curse God for her existence?

Sure.

Well I do agree with you and I think an argument can be made that even using contraception “could” be an indirect form of abortion but I am not for banning them either.

I think that fertilization is the spark that creates a new human life. All that zygote needs to become a mature human, is nutrition and time to grow. A womb of course is also essential. I just can't find another non-arbitrary point for the start of human life. Contraception that prevents fertilization would in my view not be considered morally wrong. The morning after pill would however technically be considered killing human life at is infancy.

Best. Thread. Ever.

That's all I'm going to say. Carry on.

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]Not sure because, again, I believe God created all of the scenarios and the possibilities of man therefore isn’t God ultimately responsible? Isn’t God, in a sense, punishing Himself?

That sounds a bit like the Calvinist view, which I'm not too sure I entirely agree with. Maybe God installed the initial perfect parameters, knowing full well that ...[text shortened]... The morning after pill would however technically be considered killing human life at is infancy.[/b]

That sounds a bit like the Calvinist view, which I'm not too sure I entirely agree with. Maybe God installed the initial perfect parameters, knowing full well that with free will, man will wreck it. However there will also be millions throughout history who will choose to serve Him. God did not however abandon His creation, intervening most notably with Christ.

I’m not really familiar with Calvin but if God did create us knowing that many would take advantage of all the aspects of free will isn’t that, if anything, somewhat bizarre? I agree there are many who are devout Christians and I never thought of it as God abandoning His creation but it just seems almost pointless to me?

Those events were tragedies. I can see where some of the Christians are coming from, because there have been times where God did indeed judge people for their sins. I, however don't know the hearts of the people in Asia and Niger, and would therefore not blame them for their hardship.

I guess this is another point where you and I differ because I honestly cannot see where any group (Christian or any sect) where the God they believe in would punish a race or a group of people for having different beliefs? If God created all people then didn’t He create races such as the ones of Asian heritage that basically had no concept or contact with Christ or the Bible and founded their own beliefs?

But let’s take the two most current tragedies that have occurred: Hurricane Katrina destruction of the Gulf Coast and the deaths resulting in the stampede in Iraq. As far as Katrina goes, I would guess many of these victims were most likely Christian and, according to news reports, many of them were somewhat poverty stricken to begin with. Reports believe that many of the undiscovered bodies are that of children but my point is why would God wreak such havoc?

In the case of the stampede it could be effectively argued that God was not in any way responsible for this. The Iraq government supposedly issued some false reports of a suicide bomber in the crowd which caused widespread panic. Like Katrina, many children were killed either by suffocation through the crowd or being shoved into the Tigris River. I imagine the majority of these people, if not all, were not Christian so I ask a variation of the same question above: Do you really believe a horrific tragedy such as this is due to the fact that these people are not Christian and that God intervened to wipe them out?

Absolutely. For the Christian, hardship is a time of identifying with the suffering of Christ.

I think many Christians and non-Christians alike have a hard time identifying with it.

Sure. I, however think that God has given everybody a conscience that point out what is right and wrong. It is sort of like an inhibition, that if crossed enough times, it stops functioning on that level and then one can progressively do worse things without even caring. It like the first time one looks at Porn as a child. One is furtive and unsure, but it becomes easier to go more hard-core and even start acting out what you see. By this I'm not saying that all people who look at porn will eventually become rapists, because for some people the inhibition of actually performing what you look at is never crossed. It is however scary that with most serial rapists admit that the starting point of their progressive obsession started with porn.

I think you make an excellent point here. Once we expose ourselves enough times to what we know or what we have been told is “inappropriate”, we tend to deaden our sense of what we should do and our morality becomes more “flexible”, per se. I am not even saying porn in inappropriate (well it is for minors sure).

Sure. I sometimes feel the same way when I see some of the young boys who are HIV positive. This is more politics that spirituality, but I think that governments do have a God-given right of enforcing God's justice. A life for a life.

Really? I would think you would be more from the point of view to “turn the other cheek”, no?

Originally posted by orfeo
Best. Thread. Ever.

That's all I'm going to say. Carry on.

Thanks. I have to say I am enjoying this conversation I am having with Halitose but I am pretty sure he would agree that other opinions are welcomed.

It's funny because I started this thread with a bit of venom but I think having a conversation about what another person believes without condemnation of it is refreshing.

Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]That sounds a bit like the Calvinist view, which I'm not too sure I entirely agree with. Maybe God installed the initial perfect parameters, knowing full well that with free will, man will wreck it. However there will also be millions throughout history who will choose to serve Him. God did not however abandon His creation, intervening most notably with ...[text shortened]...
Really? I would think you would be more from the point of view to “turn the other cheek”, no?

I’m not really familiar with Calvin but if God did create us knowing that many would take advantage of all the aspects of free will isn’t that, if anything, somewhat bizarre?
[/b]
True. I can't really say for sure, I hope I'm not being redundant, and as I said before theology is not my forte, but here's a few pointers.

1. Compared to God, man is very insignificant.
2. God created man so that man can worship God of his own free will.
3. This very creative act allows the opposite, that man can worship himselft or anything else he pleases.
4. I believe man has an emptiness that can only be filled by God, and therefore he is always driven towards God. As proof I cite the history of mankind and how the worship of a deity has always existed. (There are exceptions to this generalisation)
5. I believe man has a conscience (alluded to earlier) which as you said can be influenced by society, but generally holds things such as killing, stealing etc, to be morally wrong. It is a component of Natural Law and could be defined as The Knowledge of Good and Evil, which Adam partook of before the right time.
6. Therefore I believe each individual has enough in their soul, to point him/her towards God.
7. God is holy and cannot tolerate sin ie. evil. Therefore if mankind chooses evil and disregards Gods moral law and the perfect atonement of Christ, he is deserving of eternal punishment.

I hope I'm not muddying the water.

I guess this is another point where you and I differ because I honestly cannot see where any group (Christian or any sect) where the God they believe in would punish a race or a group of people for having different beliefs? If God created all people then didn’t He create races such as the ones of Asian heritage that basically had no concept or contact with Christ or the Bible and founded their own beliefs?

I believe God will judge us according to the light we have recieved. If somebody has never heard of Jesus Christ, I can't believe God will punish them for their ignorance. That is where my concepts of "emptyness" and "conscience" come in. Through these two, God has actually revealed Himself to everybody. If man still choses to disregard them, well then they are judged by their own deeds.
Through the Bible though, God has revealed an even higher standard of moral living.

Aside: There are however huge incompatibilities with eastern religions which cannot be reconciled to Christianity.

But let’s take the two most current tragedies that have occurred: Hurricane Katrina destruction of the Gulf Coast and the deaths resulting in the stampede in Iraq. As far as Katrina goes, I would guess many of these victims were most likely Christian and, according to news reports, many of them were somewhat poverty stricken to begin with. Reports believe that many of the undiscovered bodies are that of children but my point is why would God wreak such havoc?

Here's some options:

1. Katrina was caused by God.
2. Katrina was caused by the forces of nature and can be clearly explained scientifically, but God allowed it to happen.

My option would be 2. Now why did God allow it? That is where I think the concept of original sin and the curse come in. I'm quite self loathing at the moment, because pontification is also not my forte, but here goes...

1. God created man and placed him in paradise.
2. Adam was given dominion over the whole earth.
2. Mankind rebelled against God.
3. God cursed man and the earth.
4. Because of the curse, God chooses not to intervene when the forces of nature wreak havoc on earth.

In the case of the stampede it could be effectively argued that God was not in any way responsible for this. The Iraq government supposedly issued some false reports of a suicide bomber in the crowd which caused widespread panic.

Agree with you here.

Sure Like Katrina, many children were killed either by suffocation through the crowd or being shoved into the Tigris River. I imagine the majority of these people, if not all, were not Christian so I ask a variation of the same question above: Do you really believe a horrific tragedy such as this is due to the fact that these people are not Christian and that God intervened to wipe them out?

I believe that until children are old enough to be able to consciously decide, they don't fall under Gods judgement. As I explained above, I don't believe that God judges you according to whether one calls oneself a Christian, but rather according to the individual choices we make in life and the essence of our soul.

I think you make an excellent point here. Once we expose ourselves enough times to what we know or what we have been told is “inappropriate”, we tend to deaden our sense of what we should do and our morality becomes more “flexible”, per se. I am not even saying porn in inappropriate (well it is for minors sure).

Maybe porn was a bit of a controversial one, it was just the first one that came to mind. But the concept remains the same.

Really? I would think you would be more from the point of view to “turn the other cheek”, no?

On a personal level, yes. I believe one should turn the other cheek, love the person who has wronged us, and pray for their salvation.

This however doesn't mean that somebody shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.

On a governmental level, which as I said is more on a political level, I believe that the government has a mandate to serve the justice of God. After the due process of law and a fair trial where somebody is found guilty beyond reasonable doubt, they should get their due punishment... Which in a Biblical sense, for petty crimes is not a prison sentence, but restoration.

Originally posted by Joe Fist
Thanks. I have to say I am enjoying this conversation I am having with Halitose but I am pretty sure he would agree that other opinions are welcomed.

It's funny because I started this thread with a bit of venom but I think having a conversation about what another person believes without condemnation of it is refreshing.

I have to say I am enjoying this conversation I am having with Halitose but I am pretty sure he would agree that other opinions are welcomed.

Ditto

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]I’m not really familiar with Calvin but if God did create us knowing that many would take advantage of all the aspects of free will isn’t that, if anything, somewhat bizarre?
[/b]
True. I can't really say for sure, I hope I'm not being redundant, and as I said before theology is not my forte, but here's a few pointers.

1. Compared to God, man ...[text shortened]... shment... Which in a Biblical sense, for petty crimes is not a prison sentence, but restoration.[/b]

True. I can't really say for sure, I hope I'm not being redundant, and as I said before theology is not my forte, but here's a few pointers.

Are these pointers on Calvinism or on what you believe? I am sorry I might be confused?

1. Compared to God, man is very insignificant.

I understand the logic of that statement from most religious points of view but I can’t help but question it? Are we insignificant? I think an argument can be made that it is Man that gives importance and reverence to God so wouldn’t both be significant? Granted God could wipe mankind out without a thought but, if that were the case, who would be here to worship Him?


2. God created man so that man can worship God of his own free will.
3. This very creative act allows the opposite, that man can worship himself or anything else he pleases.

This sounds very non Christian and very accepting.

4. I believe man has an emptiness that can only be filled by God, and therefore he is always driven towards God. As proof I cite the history of mankind and how the worship of a deity has always existed. (There are exceptions to this generalisation)

Sure but I think for the most part you are right. I think most of us who are agnostic and atheist have wrestled in their own way with spirituality before just accepting the current path we are on. As you have determined Christianity is right for you, the people like myself have decided the other and at least for myself I have more comfort in what I feel than anything I have experienced before.

5. I believe man has a conscience (alluded to earlier) which as you said can be influenced by society, but generally holds things such as killing, stealing etc, to be morally wrong. It is a component of Natural Law and could be defined as The Knowledge of Good and Evil, which Adam partook of before the right time.

I don’t deny that it very much could be the direct result of Adam in the Garden of Eden but for reasons that I am not sure I can completely explain, it does not make sense to me?

6. Therefore I believe each individual has enough in their soul, to point him/her towards God.

But what if a person who is good but does not seek God? Or does not believe in God? Would they be regarded as evil although they are by all standards a morally upstanding citizen?

7. God is holy and cannot tolerate sin ie. evil. Therefore if mankind chooses evil and disregards Gods moral law and the perfect atonement of Christ, he is deserving of eternal punishment.

Right but is it enough for a person to live a good life without God to not suffer damnation?

I hope I'm not muddying the water.

No not at all. Interesting viewpoints you offer.

I believe God will judge us according to the light we have received. If somebody has never heard of Jesus Christ, I can't believe God will punish them for their ignorance. That is where my concepts of "emptyness" and "conscience" come in. Through these two, God has actually revealed Himself to everybody. If man still choses to disregard them, well then they are judged by their own deeds. Through the Bible though, God has revealed an even higher standard of moral living.

Sure and I think you have already answered my next question but is it not enough to life a moral life without Christ? Even if a person has been exposed to Christ but does not necessarily believe or maybe perhaps they question?

Aside: There are however huge incompatibilities with eastern religions which cannot be reconciled to Christianity.

Sure but I would say both are working towards the same idea, no?

Here's some options:

2. Katrina was caused by the forces of nature and can be clearly explained scientifically, but God allowed it to happen.

My option would be 2. Now why did God allow it? That is where I think the concept of original sin and the curse come in. I'm quite self loathing at the moment, because pontification is also not my forte, but here goes...

1. God created man and placed him in paradise.
2. Adam was given dominion over the whole earth.
2. Mankind rebelled against God.
3. God cursed man and the earth.
4. Because of the curse, God chooses not to intervene when the forces of nature wreak havoc on earth.

I guess that valid explanation, although I disagree with it, is one of many reasons why I feel differently. To me, that is almost vicious of God to curse humanity for one man’s moment of weakness.

I believe that until children are old enough to be able to consciously decide, they don't fall under Gods judgement. As I explained above, I don't believe that God judges you according to whether one calls oneself a Christian, but rather according to the individual choices we make in life and the essence of our soul.

So, without putting words in your mouth, does it sound like the label of a Christian is not as important as living the life of one? What I mean is trying to be the best person you can be?

On a personal level, yes. I believe one should turn the other cheek, love the person who has wronged us, and pray for their salvation.

While I admit that is the much more higher road to take I don’t think I can or want to. I am not really into vengeance but more so the idea that those who are criminals are not worthy of any type of kindness or rehabilitation simply because if they committed this crime there is a possibility they could do it again. It is more so for safety purposes.

On a governmental level, which as I said is more on a political level, I believe that the government has a mandate to serve the justice of God. After the due process of law and a fair trial where somebody is found guilty beyond reasonable doubt, they should get their due punishment... Which in a Biblical sense, for petty crimes is not a prison sentence, but restoration.

So do you support capital punishment?

Originally posted by Joe Fist
Honestly, I would like to know. I, like probably everybody else, knows the standard answer you will give:

"Because if you knew the glory of Jesus Christ you will know a closeness and a bliss that you have never known before and you will be one with Him in Heaven..."

Something like that, right? But I honestly don't think the thumpers who post the ...[text shortened]... to spread your message. What's that? Oh yeah, that would be the work of a "real Christian".

I would have agree with Joe to some extent. I have some good friends who now live in New Mexico who because of church politics got kicked out of a parsonage while my friends wife was 8 months pregnant. My friend while not perfect is a good example of a Christian. He was working with inner city youth at the time when this happened. These kids were from tough backgrounds drugs one parent homes just crazy stuff. I honestly believe the pastor was afraid of these young black kids. I also know she was threatened by how much the church loved my friend and his wife. I see so many so called Christians who got nothing better to do but tell their neighbor Hey buddy your going to hell!!! Man go do something like help homeless people or old people. The book of James says faith & deeds go hand in hand. Read anyone who cares James 2: 14-25 it is a stab too me at times gets me down off my high horse. Manny ps hows it going Joe??

I repect you for your work. Thanks it is more than I have ever done.

Manny

Sorry THAT was for Halitose.