05 Sep '08 21:40>
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Originally posted by TheBadBishopThe problem I see there is this: if god is omnipotent, it would have known in advance the whole venture was an exercise in futility. Therefore it says that god is not omnipotent. You can't have it both ways. 2000 years of religious violence is the result. It wasn't just the one man dying on the cross, now it's literally millions. A real god could not possibly condone that.
Im responding to the original post and just for some context I'm a Christian.
What you said about some religions being messed up - I couldnt agree more. The very fact that people would kill for their religion proves that. An example, fundamental christians in the middle east (not that there are very many of them🙂 ) go out and kill people of other re ...[text shortened]... back then, and now. So why send another Son to be cruicfied? it wouldn't acheive anything.
Originally posted by WulebgrEvidence? You don't consider millions of dead people of EVERY faith evidence of being ignored? Not only ignored but non-existent. If people of EVERY faith get killed then something is terribly wrong with the entire concept of religion. It would seem, assuming there is this so-called god you all speak of so reverently, it doesn't matter much which religion you are, someone will kill you because of it. You should seriously reconsider your blind faith in such an insane god, if it exists at all. I rather think not, that explains EVERYTHING.
She doesn't ignore them, and you have no evidence to the contrary.
Originally posted by sonhouseI think we agree more than you know. I would NEVER "fight to the death if my leader said it comes from God". Our "leader" at the moment is George Bush and I wouldn't lift a slingshot if he told me Satan himself was walking down Pennsylvania Avenue. God would have to tell [i] me [/], in no uncertain terms, before i'd suit up and dig a foxhole. And it would have to be something definitive--no whisper in a dream. I would need a big post-it note the size of Kansas, handed down from heaven.
The ability of humans to rationalize away evidence like this to fit the pre-conceived dogma is astounding. Fight to the death if our leader says it comes from god, but there is nothing wrong with that concept according to most christians or islamists either for that matter. Both religions worship the god of Abraham but members of either group have no compu ...[text shortened]... is an undeniable fact. Yet your god says in some instances not only is it allowed but commanded.
Originally posted by sonhouseThere's no question about that. But you're talking about the errors of people that profess to know some ineffable being that you presume to judge because she is letting us hang ourselves.
Evidence? You don't consider millions of dead people of EVERY faith evidence of being ignored? Not only ignored but non-existent. If people of EVERY faith get killed then something is terribly wrong with the entire concept of religion. It would seem, assuming there is this so-called god you all speak of so reverently, it doesn't matter much which religion y ...[text shortened]... aith in such an insane god, if it exists at all. I rather think not, that explains EVERYTHING.
Originally posted by WulebgrI think this ineffable being, if there is one, is setting us up for a fall, kinda like with the dinosaurs but not quite so violent like. Letting us do all the dirty work, end result, the same. Another failed attempt at intelligence.
There's no question about that. But you're talking about the errors of people that profess to know some ineffable being that you presume to judge because she is letting us hang ourselves.
Originally posted by sonhousefirst, what you are arguing is omniscience not omnipotence. a mixup there.
The problem I see there is this: if god is omnipotent, it would have known in advance the whole venture was an exercise in futility. Therefore it says that god is not omnipotent. You can't have it both ways. 2000 years of religious violence is the result. It wasn't just the one man dying on the cross, now it's literally millions. A real god could not possib ...[text shortened]... hat.
If god so loved the world he sent his only begotten son then it was a colossal failure.
Originally posted by vistesdOnly in the logic of your corrupt and perverse system of thought where you think with your puny human mind that you can judge Goddess.
According to one story—
Adam and Eve had been imbued with “free will” (the ability to make choices) before they had any knowledge of good (tov) and bad (ra)—so they were incapable of any moral discernment whatsoever, including whether disobedience was a badder or a gooder thing for humans than obedience. They wouldn’t even know if “ ...[text shortened]... .
If God is not to blame for the outcome, neither are the children.
In that story, anyway.
Originally posted by vistesdI'm interested, must 'tov' and 'ra' refer to moral good and bad? Could they not refer to aesthetic judgements of good and bad instead? I'm not advancing that is an alternative reading, just wondering...
According to one story—
Adam and Eve had been imbued with “free will” (the ability to make choices) before they had any knowledge of good (tov) and bad (ra)—so they were incapable of any moral discernment whatsoever, including whether disobedience was a badder or a gooder thing for humans than obedience. They wouldn’t even know if “ ...[text shortened]... .
If God is not to blame for the outcome, neither are the children.
In that story, anyway.
Originally posted by Conrau KAh. tov and ra refer to good and bad generally. For example, the Hebrew salute: “Mazel tov!” just means “good luck!”.
I'm interested, must 'tov' and 'ra' refer to moral good and bad? Could they not refer to aesthetic judgements of good and bad instead? I'm not advancing that is an alternative reading, just wondering...
Originally posted by WulebgrI’ve been trying for a snappy comeback, but I’m laughing too hard. I know you from way back, remember, Wule?
Only in the logic of your corrupt and perverse system of thought where you think with your puny human mind that [b]you can judge Goddess.[/b]