Why Does God Reveal Himself to Some People and Not to Others?

Originally posted by BrianW68
Atheists,Why don't you give it a try,..

For the same reason that you don't try praying to Odin. Its stupid (and insincere) to pray to someone you don't believe exists just to 'give it a try'.

Originally posted by twhitehead
For the same reason that you don't try praying to Odin. Its stupid (and insincere) to pray to someone you don't believe exists just to 'give it a try'.

I've given it a chance. He didn't listen. Or he wasn't there. Anywhere.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
It's just down to who you are. We are each of us the product of our genes and our upbringing - for you, that equals wholehearted belief in christianity, for me, not so much. I guess some people will be borderline, and I expect for these lucky folk there may be an element of choice.

I was not brought up a Christian, my family wasn't a Christian family, I got saved
when I was 25 and my life before that wasn't what I'd call Chistian so I do
disagree with you here.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I was not brought up a Christian, my family wasn't a Christian family, I got saved
when I was 25 and my life before that wasn't what I'd call Chistian so I do
disagree with you here.
Kelly

So do you believe that at 17, you knew God existed but were denying it?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So do you believe that at 17, you knew God existed but were denying it?

At 17 no one I knew talked about God had anything to do with God, I was more
into UriahHeep, Supertramp, Eagles, partying, girls, sports, partying, and girls.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
At 17 no one I knew talked about God had anything to do with God, I was more
into UriahHeep, Supertramp, Eagles, partying, girls, sports, partying, and girls.
Kelly

So you were a true atheist?
So it is only those who know someone who talks about God who is denying the evidence?
Does this mean that the evidence you talked about earlier is specifically what those who talk about God say?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you were a true atheist?
So it is only those who know someone who talks about God who is denying the evidence?
Does this mean that the evidence you talked about earlier is specifically what those who talk about God say?

If He is real, if He is calling all of us to Him and we refuse to come we are denying
God. The universe is His handy work, so evidence for God would everywhere, not
seeing it would be harder were it not for our ablity to decieve ourselves. Again
going back to those that find God, it is only those really looking for Him, not those
that are not looking with pure hearts.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If He is real, if He is calling all of us to Him and we refuse to come we are denying
God. The universe is His handy work, so evidence for God would everywhere, not
seeing it would be harder were it not for our ablity to decieve ourselves. Again
going back to those that find God, it is only those really looking for Him, not those
that are not looking with pure hearts.
Kelly

If He is real, perhaps He should give us better evidence to go on. I mean, isn't it supposedly His will that His creatures enter into loving relationships with Him? It seems a precondition for that would be that these creatures have sufficient reason to think He exists in the first place.

Originally posted by LemonJello
If He is real, perhaps He should give us better evidence to go on. I mean, isn't it supposedly His will that His creatures enter into loving relationships with Him? It seems a precondition for that would be that these creatures have sufficient reason to think He exists in the first place.

And if the evidence is already in fact sufficient already than what? As I pointed out
earlier we all see the same thing, and yet some reject, some accept. So for some
it is enough for others it isn't. When one is showed X amount and another is
shown less and they accept does this not judge the one who rejects the greater
amount as someone who should have known better? When one has a great deal
against them believing yet they do accept, when one has no reasons to reject and
yet does, what does that mean?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
And if the evidence is already in fact sufficient already than what? As I pointed out
earlier we all see the same thing, and yet some reject, some accept. So for some
it is enough for others it isn't. When one is showed X amount and another is
shown less and they accept does this not judge the one who rejects the greater
amount as someone who should hav ...[text shortened]... et they do accept, when one has no reasons to reject and
yet does, what does that mean?
Kelly

Well, obviously it is NOT the case that the evidence is already in fact sufficient to elicit belief in God's existence from me and many others -- because we do not believe God exists. But it is certainly possible that there already exists good, or even very good, evidence in the world for God's existence and yet I am not properly responsive to it; or ignorant of it; or I otherwise am disposed toward misreading it; or etc. But, even if that were the case, I would draw your attention to a couple points. Many active atheists, like myself, have come to our position through intellectually responsible avenues and through much honest study and reflection on the topic. And, further, this is for me a matter of theoretical deliberation and not really something that involves active acceptance/rejection out of volition. So, even if there is plenty of actual evidence for God in this world to justify belief in His existence, it would be hard, I think, for you to argue that my lack of such belief is a moral failing on my part; or that I am culpable for it; or that I have not done my best with the evidence as it has presented to me. Perhaps in that case it would be a matter of my evidential readings being plagued by things largely beyond my active control.

God could have simply made it such that we have strong evidence for his existence AND such that we are properly responsive to this evidence. Thus, we would come, with few or no exceptions, to belief in His existence; and, even better still, this belief would be justified and properly proportioned to the actual evidence. We would then just be good cognizers regarding this particular inquiry. Perhaps then, armed with the dispassionate knowledge that He exists, I could be in a position to choose to relate with Him or not, which is where volition could enter.

As it stands, though, it doesn't make much sense that God, an omni-whatnot being, wills that His creatures come to love Him and yet cannot (or does not) seem to reliably provide for a precondition for this that is really largely beyond such creatures' active control -- this precondition being that they come to believe He exists in the first place. It is particularly strange given that God is also supposed to be very compassionate and He knows that so much rides on my standing in a certain relation to Him -- for instance, that I will suffer for all eternity if I don't stand in the right relation with Him. You'd think God would provide for sufficient reason for me to at least believe He exists if my not relating with God means I would suffer the worst fate conceivable! And I am not merely talking here about good evidence being in the world but to which I may or may not be properly responsive; I am talking about evidence that God knows is actually sufficient to elicit the belief from me. Exactly how else does God expect me to come to belief in Him? Does He think I just choose my beliefs like ice cream flavors, or that I will believe stuff on insufficient reason or on what I honestly take to be poor evidence?

Originally posted by LemonJello
Well, obviously it is NOT the case that the evidence is already in fact sufficient to elicit belief in God's existence from me and many others -- because we do not believe God exists. But it is certainly possible that there already exists good, or even very good, evidence in the world for God's existence and yet I am not properly responsive to it; or ign will believe stuff on insufficient reason or on what I honestly take to be poor evidence?

I disagree, since God has in my opinion shown himself to the world and quite a few
have indeed come to Hiim. You not accepting God does not mean that the evidence
is not "enough" since for others it has been. Your likes and dislikes are not part of
the process as mine are not, you either go to God on God's terms or you do not. The
theorectial deliberation can be a huge undertaking, but since God says those that
seek Him will find Him, I'd say your putting your efforts into something that will
never produce fruit. This isn't a debate, a science project, it is a relationship with
the Lord God of Heaven and Earth, it will be done as God lays it out, not as we
would like it to be.
Kelly

Originally posted by LemonJello
Well, obviously it is NOT the case that the evidence is already in fact sufficient to elicit belief in God's existence from me and many others -- because we do not believe God exists. But it is certainly possible that there already exists good, or even very good, evidence in the world for God's existence and yet I am not properly responsive to it; or ign ...[text shortened]... will believe stuff on insufficient reason or on what I honestly take to be poor evidence?

"As it stands, though, it doesn't make much sense that God, an omni-whatnot being, wills that His creatures come to love Him and yet cannot (or does not) seem to reliably provide for a precondition for this that is really largely beyond such creatures' active control -- this precondition being that they come to believe He exists in the first place."

God has shown His love towards us first, what we produce in the area of love is
very basic, it takes God to really show us what love really is. We get a glimps of
it from time to time with each other, but for the most part God has a lot to teach
us on that topic.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
"As it stands, though, it doesn't make much sense that God, an omni-whatnot being, wills that His creatures come to love Him and yet cannot (or does not) seem to reliably provide for a precondition for this that is really largely beyond such creatures' active control -- this precondition being that they come to believe He exists in the first place."

God ...[text shortened]... time with each other, but for the most part God has a lot to teach
us on that topic.
Kelly

You can see though how your stance is systematically immune from criticism?

Originally posted by Lord Shark
You can see though how your stance is systematically immune from criticism?

Why is that, because God is the source our knowledge, our truth, and if it were not
for God we would simply act out at the most basic level of human lust and greed?

If you don't mind me dragging evolution into this, love flies in the face of that
belief/theory? Since the struggle for survival and survival of the fittest does not
go along with laying down one's life for another. When love is involved one actually
has to put another before themselves which does not compute when it comes to a
struggle for survival neither will the stronger or fastest survive if they were to
always put the slower and weaker before their needs or even wants.

When God’s Spirit is leading and guiding us we will live caring for others even our
enemies; which is not the driving force people have today with those they are
in conflict with. Look at how we view our enemies in our entertainment industry
today, the normal is someone gets wronged, and it is it forgiveness or some type
of righteous anger that gets portrayed and cheered on for that matter?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Why is that, because God is the source our knowledge, our truth, and if it were not
for God we would simply act out at the most basic level of human lust and greed?

If you don't mind me dragging evolution into this, love flies in the face of that
belief/theory? Since the struggle for survival and survival of the fittest does not
go along with laying d ...[text shortened]... ss or some type
of righteous anger that gets portrayed and cheered on for that matter?
Kelly

Kelly, do you really believe this? Do you have children? Suppose that you found out tomorrow that there is no God. Just hypothetically, suppose that you were utterly convinced that there is no God. Would you still love your children? Would your actions towards them all of a sudden be motivated by "lust and greed"?