Originally posted by chappy1
No response huh Serigado? This was in response of your question.

Sorry, it was friday night, and I went to a drink (or ten?) , but I got to it already. Looking forward to continue our friendly debate.

Originally posted by chappy1
It is not a contradiction. Sin must be punished and it has through Jesus's sacrifice for us. Through faith we are forgiven. He is our substitute.

So, Jesus is your whipping boy!

Nice cop-out

Originally posted by serigado
But that is exactly the point here. WHAT are the reasons for believing? You can begin with the 2-3 most significant ones.
Why is Christianity true? If you reached it and you are sure, then the other 5 billion people on earth are wrong and it's your duty to argument them into the truth. Unless you are afraid of losing the sweet spot you convinced yourself to believe in.

I told twhitehead that my previous post was my last on the subject; I guess this is another subject now being asked by serigado. So here is my reply (I'm saying it matter of factly, no hidden agenda--if another doesn't believe, that's okay).
What are the reasons for believing?
First is belief in God--for those who believe, no evidence is needed, for those who don't, no evidence suffices. Then we examine all extant writings. We have the bible, but there are many ancient manuscripts pointing to its credibility. I was talking to a cousin before telling me of things written in the Koran, things different from the bible. They have a different account on the life of Jesus, a prophet, I agree. So believe me, when I have the chance, I'll read a translation of the Koran in English, if I find it (some Islamic purists requires that we read it in the Arabic language, but this is not possible for me pragmatically). Because I can't possible understand Hebrew and Greek, I admit that I have to 'have faith' in the scriptural scholars we have.
We have several writings from the first century attesting to historicity of Jesus.
After the belief in the historic Jesus, you have to dig deeper into the theology of his message (even if you don't believe it, try reading what we call the New Testament; I know you have several issues on the Old Testament but I hope you read the New Testament). There you'll learn what Jesus did, and his disciples and Apostles. It states there that it was St. Paul of Tarsus who first spread the Gospel to the then known world (Asia, Europe, North Africa).
So the third reason for believing is the extant Bible, particularly the New Testament. Of course there are many spiritual books written by various saints.
This may be long, so to end, perhaps I'll just say that, the other 5 billion people who don't know Jesus Christ, they are NOT damned. An unbeliever who does good to his fellow (even if he's an atheist) will definitely get saved. I believe there is such thing as Islamophobia because of all these violence we see in the news, but do you know that there is also this thing called 'Christianophobia'? True Christians spread peace and love to all; if there are Christians who do evil, that's a source of scandal to us, and we don't tolerate that. I have to reiterate: I'm writing this response out of love.
If I don't hit the nail on the head (regarding your query), I hope there is someone there who can better articulate what I'm trying to say here.... 😉

Originally posted by Charlie93
I told twhitehead that my previous post was my last on the subject; I guess this is another subject now being asked by serigado. So here is my reply (I'm saying it matter of factly, no hidden agenda--if another doesn't believe, that's okay).
What are the reasons for believing?
First is belief in God--for those who believe, no evidence is needed, for tho someone there who can better articulate what I'm trying to say here.... 😉

Let me try to resume to clear the reasoning.
I asked why you believe in Christian God.
The reasons you enumerate are:
1 - Because you believe in God
2 - Bible + ancient manuscripts. (History)
3 - The message of the Bible

1 - You say you don't need evidence to believe. This ends the debate, I guess... I wanted to show that the only true "evidence" of Christian God is the Bible, and the Bible can't be said to be true.

2 - Even believing the accuracy of the writings, who says it was not an exaggerated story in an attempt to change the world? Jesus existed, I "believe" he did. Isn't it likely that he was only an extraordinary man, with a wonderful message far beyond is time, attempting to change the mentalities of people, influencing thousands into his philosophy, in such a way people saw him as a moral savior (and some more)? And that to perpetuate his message, things written might have exaggerated compared to what really happened?
I understand his message can elevate people, but you are believing a lot of stuff that doesn't fit in this real world. It really seems Jesus was made to fit the previous Judaic religion, no matter what. And what you see is a discontinuity between OT and NT. There are too many incongruences in the whole story, that arise true suspicions to its veracity.

We're talking about events 2k yrs ago! History isn't that precise. We can't be sure about history of the roman emperors of that time, for whom a lot more as written, but you are willing to believe without question in the Bible, one single book written by the same people who WANTED their philosophy to spread??? It's just too naive...

Do you think all the history of Jesus written in the Bible is 100% accurate? That the original Bible (I'm not even talking about possible ulterior alterations) tells us exactly what happened?

Originally posted by Phis
So, Jesus is your whipping boy!

Nice cop-out

I wouldn't put it like that but in a sense, yes.

Originally posted by serigado
oh... now you have fallen into it... where can I start...

[b]Christianity is right because it provides atonement where Islam doesn't.
??? Does it? Only to Christians.

God is perfectly holy, perfectly just, and perfectly merciful.
In your viewpoint only. So is Allah.

.... after this you started to diverge to the same blablabla witho ...[text shortened]... sion...

And we're getting nowhere... I guess my pursuit is damned from the beginning.[/b]

No Allah is not. Like I said Islam offers no proxy therefore we will die tainted with sin and full of blame. If Allah sends us to hell then he is just but not merciful. If he forgives then he is not just (hasn't punished sin) and isn't perfectly holy because he's allowed sin into heaven.

Tell me why what I've said concerning perfectly holy, just, merciful doesn't make sense. What's the blablabla logic and reasoning you're referring to? Yes Christ does offer forgiveness to everyone who believe he is who he says he is. Why would it apply to those who don't believe? Now that wouldn't make sense would it?

Originally posted by PeterDG
Thank you for accepting that the Koran has contradictions. Can you list them for us, to education us. Thank you.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Enjoy!

Originally posted by serigado
Let me try to resume to clear the reasoning.
I asked [b]why you believe in Christian God.
The reasons you enumerate are:
1 - Because you believe in God
2 - Bible + ancient manuscripts. (History)
3 - The message of the Bible

1 - You say you don't need evidence to believe. This ends the debate, I guess... I wanted to show that the only true "evi ...[text shortened]... t even talking about possible ulterior alterations) tells us exactly what happened?[/b]

Quoting 7th book in the New Testament: "Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness," and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile." (1 Corinthians 3.18-20 RSV)."
It boils down to faith, which you call naivette. Let's respect each other: to each his own. 😉