why god?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
As in, miracles? Or are you thinking along the lines of some measurable effect, e.g., the cosmic microwave background radiation?

I mean any tangible effect.

As long as there is any tangible effect of God on the world, then we should be able to observe it (directly or indirectly) when it happens.

Your claim that such truth cannot be observed seems to contradict the possibility of God having ANY tangible effect on the universe.

(or am I misinterpreting what you meant by truth?)

Edit On second reading, I think I misread the first post I've quoted. Sorry about that.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I don't think it is possible to prove God's existence even by resorting to words and philosophical arguments, although such inquiry could be useful. There is evidence of God's existence, but no proof.

What are the evidences for God's existence? Brevity will be valued--I'm sure we're both more or less familiar with the basic arguments for or against, and this is not the place for an exhaustive, comprehensive presentation of either of our points. I just want to know where you're coming from. You know, so I know whether to use the Caro-Khan or a King's Indian.

(Just kidding...while the strategic play is fun here, I genuinely am interested in getting to the truth.)

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]But what is the Problem that arises if we deny the existence of "God"?

Well, if God exists, then the "Problem" that arises if we deny the existence of God, obviously, is ignorance.

If empirical and rational inquiry cannot of itself verify God's existence, it seems to me either a naive or a blatantly contrived position to deny God's existence based on those particular avenues of knowledge acquisition.[/b]

Just a minute my friend epi;

In such a case there is not the slightest complication because of this "ignorance" in my normal, everyday life. If there are implications kindly please state them;

I once had a friend who was a Christian who had formerly been an atheist. (Yes I know that people change the other direction too). I have had more than one friend like that.

Anyway, he was a real atheist. So I took the opportunity to ask him how one can lead an atheist to believe in Jesus Christ.

For what it is worth, I never forgot his answer. He said in essence "First of all, getting into an argument with them as if you have a better argument than they do, is the exact worst thing you can do."

Then he went on to say some other things which I will not repeat.

As if any of you would be nervous about it or care anyway. I don't even know if he was right. I just remember the surprise of his answer.

Originally posted by convect
Of course they do. But what is that discussion doing in the Science Forum?

Well, in your first post, you made it quite clear that the body of scientific research clearly opposes believes in God. You claimed that the theist believes "God is real and science is wrong" as if belief in God and acceptance of science is incompatible. If such an opposition is true, that theism and science really are at loggerheads, why should is surprise you that some theists would want to confute that scientific research which challenges their theism?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Well, in your first post, you made it quite clear that the body of scientific research clearly opposes believes in God. You claimed that the theist believes "God is real and science is wrong" as if belief in God and acceptance of science is incompatible. If such an opposition is true, that theism and science really are at loggerheads, why should is surprise ...[text shortened]... hat some theists would want to confute that scientific research which challenges their theism?

No, the body of scientific research clearly does NOT oppose believing in God. There are lots of theist scientists out there. All science does is talk about how nature works.

There ARE theists who believe that "God is real and science is wrong." Near as I can tell, that's because scientific knowledge conflicts with their beliefs about nature, so they have to argue those conclusions. And they like to liven up the Science Forum with all kinds of non-scientific stuff.

If you want to argue about this, either you can make a new thread, or I will make one and ask you to take it there.

What is faith, Conrau? I don't think you've actually answered that question yet.

Originally posted by convect
No, the body of scientific research clearly does NOT oppose believing in God. There are lots of theist scientists out there. All science does is talk about how nature works.

There ARE theists who believe that "God is real and science is wrong." Near as I can tell, that's because scientific knowledge conflicts with their beliefs about nature, so they ha ...[text shortened]... there.

What is faith, Conrau? I don't think you've actually answered that question yet.

Near as I can tell, that's because scientific knowledge conflicts with their beliefs about nature, so they have to argue those conclusions.

Exactly. So what surprises you? Obviously a person will challenge a set of ideas if these conflict with their beliefs. Why discourage that?

What is faith, Conrau?

Reading bbar's list of definition, I think 1. agrees most with mine. I would distinguish faith from other types of belief by the fact that faith not only proposes something about the nature of the world but that it also assumes an attitude.

Originally posted by black beetle
Just a minute my friend epi;

In such a case there is not the slightest complication because of this "ignorance" in my normal, everyday life. If there are implications kindly please state them;

If the prospect of being ignorant of the truth isn't a problem for you, then by all means enjoy your normal everyday life.

I'm certainly not going to stop you.

Originally posted by convect
What are the evidences for God's existence? Brevity will be valued--I'm sure we're both more or less familiar with the basic arguments for or against, and this is not the place for an exhaustive, comprehensive presentation of either of our points. I just want to know where you're coming from. You know, so I know whether to use the Caro-Khan or a King's In ...[text shortened]... ..while the strategic play is fun here, I genuinely am interested in getting to the truth.)

Briefly.

(1) Of course, there are a number of arguments for God's existence, e.g., Efficient Causality, Time and Contingency, Degrees of Perfection, etc., which we may regard as evidence, but not proof.

(2) Otherwise, faith is the primary and biblical means of perceiving God and prayer is ancillary to faith. Evidence of God's existence can be found through a prayerful relationship to God.

(3) Examining the historical record, including the four gospels. Testing the reliability of the documents (it should be noted that the NT documents, objectively speaking, are far more established historically than any other in ancient secular history).

(4) Establishing the reliability of the testimony of the apostles.

this is a nice thread,haven't read all of it but my answers would be-
1. proof that god exists are everywhere,especially in science and quantum science where anomilies more than awaken even the most ardent skeptic(without putting the universe totally out of kilter with what is logical and reasionable)
2. FAITH..is related to doubt-a very interesting mechanic of the human mind.
It is said that in zen before one comes to satori (enlightenment) one comes to the 'moment of great doubt'. So it is my understanding that as your faith grows so does your doubt. (very complex thing the human mind).
Thus enlightenment is reached only after passing through this 'moment'

1. God, (capitol)
2. Faith is not related to doubt.
3. No such thing as moment of great doubt.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Briefly.

(1) Of course, there are a number of arguments for God's existence, e.g., Efficient Causality, Time and Contingency, Degrees of Perfection, etc., which we may regard as evidence, but not proof.

(2) Otherwise, faith is the primary and biblical means of perceiving God and prayer is ancillary to faith. Evidence of God's existence can be foun ...[text shortened]... ncient secular history).

(4) Establishing the reliability of the testimony of the apostles.

…(1) Of course, there are a number of arguments for God's existence, e.g., Efficient Causality, Time and Contingency, Degrees of Perfection, etc., which we may regard as evidence, but not proof.
...

How are any of these things “evidence” of a god?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
this is a nice thread,haven't read all of it but my answers would be-
1. proof that god exists are everywhere,especially in science and quantum science where anomilies more than awaken even the most ardent skeptic(without putting the universe totally out of kilter with what is logical and reasionable)
2. FAITH..is related to doubt-a very interestin ...[text shortened]... human mind).
Thus enlightenment is reached only after passing through this 'moment'

…1. proof that god exists are everywhere, especially in science and quantum science where anomalies more than awaken even the most ardent sceptic
….

Can you give a specific example of just one of these ‘anomalies’ in science and quantum physics and explain exactly how it is “proof” that ‘god’ exists?

I can't "Proof" that God does exist whether you Believe in Him or not, by Faith we can Believe in Him, like I believe in you even though I can't see you.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Briefly.

(1) Of course, there are a number of arguments for God's existence, e.g., Efficient Causality, Time and Contingency, Degrees of Perfection, etc., which we may regard as evidence, but not proof.

(2) Otherwise, faith is the primary and biblical means of perceiving God and prayer is ancillary to faith. Evidence of God's existence can be foun ...[text shortened]... ncient secular history).

(4) Establishing the reliability of the testimony of the apostles.

I would also say (4) prophesy. For example, the prophesy in Daniel 9:24-27 is pretty astounding to me. Basically it is a calendar for the coming of the Messiah some 500 years into the future which is when Christ came on the scene.