why god?

Originally posted by convect
What is faith, Conrau? I don't think you've actually answered that question yet.[/b]

What is faith to you? For me, it is relational in nature. For example, you probably place your faith in people whom you love. In addition, you have no PROOF that this faith is not misplaced, however, I'm sure you have evidences that it is not misplaced. The same is with God for me. There are evidences but no proof. I don't view faith as blind simply because we SHOULD have reasons for trusting in people/beliefs/God etc. Faith is not an exercise in divorcing oneself from reality, however, it does involve not fully comprehending it. In addition, supposing that theists are correct and there is a God, we can in no way completly comprehend him simply because we are finite beings. Therefore, an element of faith is necessary in such a relationship if God exists. I have but one more thing for you to ponder, the Bible is full of stories in which people knew that God existed yet they lost faith in him. Stories such as Adam and Eve in the garden are examples of this. Therefore, does it really behoove God to prove to us that he exists? That is not the faith he is looking for in us. Faith goes beyond believing he exists.

Yes God does exist, but I never heard that Adam and Eve lost Faith in Him, what you are referring to is Living Faith or Living by Faith.

Originally posted by daniel58
Yes God does exist, but I never heard that Adam and Eve lost Faith in Him, what you are referring to is Living Faith or Living by Faith.

No, what I am saying is that they lost faith in him. As the scriptures say, anything that is not based in faith in God is sin. God told them not to do something and at that time they did not know enough as to why. They then questioned whether listening to God over their own curious minds was wise or not and that is when they lost faith in God and in his wisdom and in his benevolence. I think that they thought they were missing out on something better than what God had to offer. So yes, I do mean they lost faith in him.

Originally posted by whodey
No, what I am saying is that they lost faith in him. As the scriptures say, anything that is not based in faith in God is sin. God told them not to do something and at that time they did not know enough as to why. They then questioned whether listening to God over their own curious minds was wise or not and that is when they lost faith in God and in his wi ...[text shortened]... g out on something better than what God had to offer. So yes, I do mean they lost faith in him.

No, the serpent told the truth. Their eyes were opened, and they had knowledge—of both the good and the bad. They did not die (and they were not then immortal: God kicked them out of the garden so that they would not eat of the tree of life and become immortal, now that they had knowledge). God offered them ignorance and obedience (faith-in-ignorance), and threatened them with a death they could not even have understood (not yet having such knowledge); the serpent offered them knowledge. (Who let the serpent in the garden, anyway? Was God not paying attention to his beloved mortals?)

Theologians have spilled large quantities of ink reading things into the story trying to spin it some other way (e.g., not a “real” death, but a “spiritual” one).

Had the first humans not acquired knowledge, you would not be able to fashion articulate arguments on here; more importantly, you would not be able to tell the good from the bad, and so avoid the bad. If they came by the knowledge too early in their development, that was at most an error—that’s all. The point is: it was the serpent who told the truth (as the story goes, anyway).

[And now, young children get taught that they have some innate “original wickedness” (since that seems to be what most people mean by the word “sin” ) that is justly (and eternally) punishable, that they cannot help but be wicked, and so they had better believe what they are taught in order to have forgiveness. Now that, to my mind, is wicked.]

Originally posted by daniel58
I can't "Proof" that God does exist whether you Believe in Him or not, by Faith we can Believe in Him, like I believe in you even though I can't see you.

…like I believe in you even though I can't see you.
….

The belief that I exist is not based on blind faith but on credible hypothesis;

You can see my posts! And it would be difficult to explain the existence of my posts without saying “I” am behind them!
It is like seeing the smoke of a fire without seeing the fire.

If you theorise that there is no person behind the posts in ’my’ name then you would have to make a seemingly absurd hypothesis to explain the existence of those posts such as a computer is generating those posts! (I don’t think computers are that advanced yet to make a reasonably meaningful conversation) -or some similar implausible explanation.

Originally posted by vistesd
No, the serpent told the truth. Their eyes were opened, and they had knowledge—of both the good and the bad. They did not die (and they were not then immortal: God kicked them out of the garden so that they would not eat of the tree of life and become immortal, now that they had knowledge). God offered them ignorance and obedience (faith-in-ignorance), a ...[text shortened]... er believe what they are taught in order to have forgiveness. Now that, to my mind, is wicked.]

I did not say that there was no truth in what the serpent said. AFter all, the best lies have truth intermingled in them. In fact, in Genesis 3:4 the serpent tells them that they surely will NOT die which is an obvious lie and the whole reason for the serpent interacting with them. Now as to whether or not "death" talked about was physical or spiritual is beside the point even though I would argue that I believe they would not have died physically.

Of course, my take on the whole matter is different than your own and has come from my own revelations on the matter. No theologian sat me down and indoctrinated me as to his own belief on the matter, rather I formed it from study and prayer. In my view, the whole power struggle is one of control. Will we make God our Lord or will we become our own god or appoint someone else to be our god? The serpent rightly makes feference to this by saying they will be as gods. In other words, who is the Lord in your life? Is it yourself or do you defer to another? Adam and Eve chose to be their own gods and God granted their wish. So off they went without the God of life to keep them living and his wisdom to protect them from harm. Of course, nothing can change the fact that God has power over us ultimately but that does not mean we have to submit to that power in the here and now. We refuse to submit to God for various reasons and, in fact, you seem to even believe the serpent and his lie on some level even after the fact despite knowing what the end result would be. It is baffling to say the least.

Now as to why Lucifer was cast to the earth in the first place is a whole other thread. 😉

Originally posted by whodey
I did not say that there was no truth in what the serpent said. AFter all, the best lies have truth intermingled in them. In fact, in Genesis 3:4 the serpent tells them that they surely will NOT die which is an obvious lie and the whole reason for the serpent interacting with them. Now as to whether or not "death" talked about was physical or spiritual is ...[text shortened]...

Now as to why Lucifer was cast to the earth in the first place is a whole other thread. 😉

"Control" this is a serious question. (remember my words:I'm serious about being not serious).
Do you mean should we 'align' ourselves with the 'higher' will or just use free will to continually satisfy our egos?

So Are you taking this whole 'Lucifer' thing positively?
I would suggest that you do . (there is no escaping from the past for you)
This is a chance for a new beginning. Lucifer has unwittingly given us a chance to create a new world.
(he has thought about sending a hologram of jesus onto a cloud but deciced against it for he realized we are too intelligent. He has travelled through time to manipulate our history but realized that he couldn't go past 2030. He (Lucifer) is out of ideas. Its our move! (and we know how to play chess))

Originally posted by karoly aczel
"Control" this is a serious question. (remember my words:I'm serious about being not serious).
Do you mean should we 'align' ourselves with the 'higher' will or just use free will to continually satisfy our egos?

So Are you taking this whole 'Lucifer' thing positively?
I would suggest that you do . (there is no escaping from the past for you)
Thi ast 2030. He (Lucifer) is out of ideas. Its our move! (and we know how to play chess))

What I am saying is that God has the "Big Picture". However, being lesser finite being we do not because we are inherently incapable. As a result, we must rely on him to direct us toward the best path at times or go the opposite direction. And no, I don't think mankind took the best path, do you? Do you like suffering? Do you like death?

Originally posted by whodey
What I am saying is that God has the "Big Picture". However, being lesser finite being we do not because we are inherently incapable. As a result, we must rely on him to direct us toward the best path at times or go the opposite direction. And no, I don't think mankind took the best path, do you? Do you like suffering? Do you like death?

Did I say mankind took the best path?
(i must be blind) If I did, I re-tract at once!

Now about us being 'inherently incapable'? What do you mean ? I know it is nearly impossible to know God . But not impossible.
Surely we hold the key for a new world.?!~?!

Now about us being 'inherently incapable'? What do you mean ? I know it is nearly impossible to know God . But not impossible.
Surely we hold the key for a new world.?!~?![/b]

It is impossible to know God COMPLETELY, what do you mean we hold the key for a new world?

Originally posted by daniel58
It is impossible to know God COMPLETELY, what do you mean we hold the key for a new world?

if we could use our whole brains and not just 10% of them we could 'create' a peaceful future. Timothy Leary went on and on about how the future of mankind lay in the prospect of 'turning on' our whole brains.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
if we could use our whole brains and not just 10% of them we could 'create' a peaceful future. Timothy Leary went on and on about how the future of mankind lay in the prospect of 'turning on' our whole brains.

Using our brains is the issue? I have always said, there is nothing more dangerous than a very intelligent person who has an evil heart. Intelligence is not the issue, it goes deeper than that.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Did I say mankind took the best path?
(i must be blind) If I did, I re-tract at once!

Now about us being 'inherently incapable'? What do you mean ? I know it is nearly impossible to know God . But not impossible.
Surely we hold the key for a new world.?!~?!

Knowing God is like knowing your best friend. You get out of it what you put into the relationship.

What I mean about being inherently incapable is that we are finite being with finite knowledge about the best ways to live our lives. At times, God is needed to see for us in our "blind spots".

Originally posted by whodey
Using our brains is the issue? I have always said, there is nothing more dangerous than a very intelligent person who has an evil heart. Intelligence is not the issue, it goes deeper than that.

'using our brains whole brains' is definately part of the issue for me.
My idea of 'intelligence' is not left-brain orientated.
Yes there is nothing more dangerous than an intelligent person with an evil heart.
'Intelligence' and education are part of the issue. Yes it goes deeper but how to proceed? Surely we need a balanced approach from both left and right brain.
I dont think I have disagreed with you at all, however Maybe I added something to your arguement.

Originally posted by whodey
Knowing God is like knowing your best friend. You get out of it what you put into the relationship.

What I mean about being inherently incapable is that we are finite being with finite knowledge about the best ways to live our lives. At times, God is needed to see for us in our "blind spots".

Are you sure we are 'finite beings'?