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24 Apr 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterThe serpent (not snake) was demonically possessed. Demonic possession occurred frequently in the Bible and still occurs today according to many Christians. It’s why exorcisms are performed.
The snake cannot form words as we know them, so how could it have been literally “talking”?
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24 Apr 18
Originally posted by @divegeester
OK mister substantive; answer me this; you believe that the account of the events in the Garden of Eden was literal, correct?
And the tree of life was a real tree, with roots and leaves, correct? It was "planted", right?
And this tree will straddle the river as mentioned in Revelation, correct?
And it's leaves will be for the healing of the nations ...[text shortened]... life now? It was on earth and is supposed to be being guarded by a flaming sword. Where is it???
OK mister substantive; answer me this; you believe that the account of the events in the Garden of Eden was literal, correct?
I take it as historical and with profound significance also.
God, Who transcends time, is sovereign over history and has not problem at all arranging something like this.
ie. A historical event with great allegorical significance.
And the tree of life was a real tree, with roots and leaves, correct? It was "planted", right?
Yes. I thought on this for a long time. I decided that a tree of life was there.
But I waste absolutely no time wondering about where it is now or what happened to it. Clearly it pointed to Christ Who is the life of God.
As said above, God, Who transcends time, has no problem in arranging history to occur WITH profound allegorical significance symbols as well.
In the Bible, a number of times, interaction with something physical in the real world carried with it a result related to ones spiritual relationship with God.
IE.
1.) The ark of the covenant. A man died when he touched it not paying heed to the law of God's prescription as to how the priests alone were to handle it.
2.) At a supper before Christ's crucifixion, Judas hypocritically shared a piece of bread, eating it. The NT says after the morsel was eaten, Satan entered into him.
These two examples show profound spiritual results from handling something either dedicated to God or should have been regarded as calling for genuine un-hypocritical treatment.
So two trees in the garden has no major problems for me.
I would not be among some folks concerned about discovering such artifacts in the world today.
And this tree will straddle the river as mentioned in Revelation, correct?
This is rather interesting. Revelation is definitely given in "signs". So the tree of life in the vision of Revelation 21 and 22 I take as allegorical.
Apparently, in John's vision "the tree of life" must be a vine tree.
"And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb
in the middle of its street.
And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yeilding its fruit each month.
and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations." (Rev. 22:1,2)
Christ said that He was the "true vine" in John 15.
The tree of life which John saw was a vine tree which spread along the river of water of life. It points to Christ the true vine and the tree of life.
The leaves healing the nations refers to the healing ministry of the sons of God to those nations who are transferred from the previous age. These are the nations over whom the sons of God will reign forever and ever.
The blessing of their being maintained, healed, restored and shepherded is referred to as the healing by the leaves of the tree of life.
The sons of God EAT the fruit of the tree of life.
The restored nations are healed by the leaves of the tree of life.
That is all I have time to write at this moment.
24 Apr 18
Originally posted by @sonshipAre you "sovereign" over the interpretation of what is literally true and what is allegorical?
I take it as historical and with profound significance also.
God, Who transcends time, is sovereign over history and has not problem at all arranging something like this.
24 Apr 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @sonshipHow many hundreds of thousands of years passed after this "historical event" occurred before the account of it was written down? How did the people who finally wrote it down establish that the story was not allegorical?
I take it as historical and with profound significance also. God, Who transcends time, is sovereign over history and has not problem at all arranging something like this. ie. A historical event with great allegorical significance.
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25 Apr 18
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Originally posted by @sonshipSo Revelation is “signs” when it suits you because you can’t explain the tree of life, but literal when you want to defend your beloved doctrine of eternal torture.OK mister substantive; answer me this; you believe that the account of the events in the Garden of Eden was literal, correct?
I take it as historical and with profound significance also.
God, Who transcends time, is sovereign over history and has not problem at all arranging something like this.
ie. A historical event with great alle ...[text shortened]... re healed by the leaves of the tree of life.
That is all I have time to write at this moment.
I see.
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25 Apr 18
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Originally posted by @fmfThe question makes no sense to me.
Are you "sovereign" over the interpretation of what is literally true and what is allegorical?
I detect some kind of barbed sarcasm which I count as a worthless gesture.
25 Apr 18
Originally posted by @sonshipI think it is pretty clear.
The question makes no sense to me.
I detect some kind of barbed sarcasm which I count as a worthless gesture.
You say that your god figure is "sovereign" over whether he can make a snake talk or not.
Are you "sovereign" over whether or not you can interpret a talking snake as allegorical?
If you don't want there to be any debate/discussion of why you believe in the "talking snake", you perhaps should not have entitled the thread "Why I believe in Talking Snake".
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25 Apr 18
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Originally posted by @divegeester
So Revelation is “signs” when it suits you becuase you can’t explain the tree of life, but literal when you want to defend your beloved doctrine of eternal torture.
I see.
My "beloved doctrine" of eternal torture?
I see. Your underlying beef with everything in the Christian faith goes back to your resentment of the revelation of eternal punishment.
I see.
Every gesture at discussing how to understand biblical matters must gravitate always back into dealing with the passages on final eternal judgment which you find intolerably offensive personally.
I see.
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25 Apr 18
3 edits
Originally posted by @sonshipYour dodge of my question is noted.
My "beloved doctrine" of eternal torture?
Revelation is “signs” when it’s suits you and then it’s literal when it suits you.
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25 Apr 18
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Originally posted by @apathistOh, I'll be honestly searching for a long time.
What keeps me searching is trust that the Christ that I know is real and came into my life is revealing the truth to us.
If I said I have stopped searching, you might be the first to object that I'm not like science - always discovering more.
Now in Genesis you have a flow of history which causes one to take things at face value. After the murder of Abel by Cain, Cain moved to the land of Nod "East of Eden".
"East" of a mythical place ?
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25 Apr 18
Genesis is written very historically and with geographically realism.
Then you back up over the matters to the cause of the family, the cause of death in the family, the cause of the alienation from God, etc. and it appears that the writer wrote of practical things in time and space.
Then you consider the overall writing of the five books of Moses - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. You consider the intelligence of the author. You consider his mastery over technical details, geographic details, engineering details, design details, genealogical details, You come to a realization that the mind you are dealing with is not of an naive or foolish nature. It doesn't sound like a mind given to foolishness at all.
I get the impression that I am reading the thoughts of someone who is extremely faithful to write what he knows he is suppose to write. I don't believe he witnessed all things except some things he may have seen supernaturally by special revelation.
These things I take into consideration over the years. Then I come to the New Testament and see that the Apostle Paul speaks of the events in a matter of a fact way too. His mind certainly does not suggest the mind of a foolish person given to extravagant fictional myth. In fact he warns against it.
"Let no one defraud you ... in worship of angels, dwelling on things which he has seen, vainly puffed up by his mind set on the flesh." (Col. 2:18)
He is saying "You may hear some things which are spiritual, somewhat related to the divine, which someone swears he was an eyewitness to, puffed up, persuaded of its importance, but leading you away from Christ. Don't fall for such persuasive mythic experiences."
The same writer speaks frankly about Adam and Eve and the serpent's deceiving.
"For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been quite deceived, has fallen into transgression." (1 Tim. 2:14)
"Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world and through sin, death and this death passed on to all men because all have sinned" ( Romans 5:12)
"For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous." (5:19)
"But I fear lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your thoughts would be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity of Christ." (2 Cor. 11:3"
Both in Moses and in Paul I am confronted with intelligent minds which certainly appear to take the account of the serpent historically.
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25 Apr 18
3 edits
Originally posted by @sonshipSonship:
Revelation is definitely given in "signs". So the tree of life in the vision of Revelation 21 and 22 I take as allegorical.
“Why I believe in talking snake” thread. Page 3
Noted.
And yet all the stuff in Revelation about eternal torture is literal.
😉