@kellyjay saidKellyJay: [my paraphrasing] ...
You know the answer, the wrath of God is on us all outside of Christ.
Humans are intrinsically evil.
They deserve to be brutalized forever by our creator after they die: all of us do.
But I won't be brutalized forever by our creator because I believe he exists and that mitigates/forgives my intrinsically evil nature.
Furthermore, my belief that 'humans who don't believe in our creator actually do deserve to be brutalized forever by our creator' is one of the tenents of my belief in our creator.
And whatever I believe our creator does is good, and it is good regardless of anyone else's opinion, because I believe whatever our creator does is good and no one can escape from this logic.
I mean, he is totally REAL, after all.
If you don't believe this, then the thing I believe will happen to you [the torture thing], will definitely happen, because I believe that...
[1] everything cannot have come from nothing and
[2] you will find out I was right all along when you die, and THAT is a fact.
@fmf saidPlaying the game of your faith speech and mine, we live in reality, we ponder it and make assertions about it. So we can be correct about some things and others not. It doesn't change if what we assert is true or not; when we get it right or wrong, it will still always be an assertion.
KellyJay: [my paraphrasing] ...
Humans are intrinsically evil.
They deserve to be brutalized forever by our creator after they die: all of us do.
But I won't be brutalized forever by our creator because I believe he exists and that mitigates/forgives my intrinsically evil nature.
Furthermore, my belief that 'humans who don't believe in our creator actually do deser ...[text shortened]... e from nothing and
[2] you will find out I was right all along when you die, and THAT is a fact.
I am saying God is good, righteous, just, Holy, and at every point throughout eternity that has never changed or will. So everything God says and does will all be due to His nature. He created the universe, and it was very good but didn't stay that way because for it to be authentic, everyone in it (the people) had to be able to love both God and each other. For that to be true, everyone in it is had to be able to say no to love, and as soon as that is done, we get all manner of evil.
Even though we were sinners, God loved us and saved us while maintaining justice, goodness, and righteousness. He didn't lay aside justice by just ignoring our sins. He didn't stop being good by accepting a rapist over the rape victim. He took on all of our guilt upon Himself as the Word of God was punished in full for our sins so all of God's justice, goodness, and righteousness could be satisfied in God's mercy and love through grace through faith.
In the end, and there is an end coming, the selfishness of evil and human pride will be judged, no secret will be left hidden, everything will be exposed and justly judged, and if condemned or rewarded.
@kellyjay saidYou have religious faith.
Playing the game of your faith speech and mine, we live in reality, we ponder it and make assertions about it.
I don't have religious faith.
Your religious faith tells you I will be brutalized by a grotesque supernatural being for not having your religious faith.
My absence of religious faith makes no ludicrous threats against you.
@kellyjay saidso we can be correct about some things and others not it doesn't change if what we assert is true or not when we get it right or wrong it will still always be an assertion i am saying god is good righteous just holy and at every point throughout eternity that has never changed or will so everything god says and does will all be due to his nature he created the universe and it was very good but didn't stay that way because for it to be authentic everyone in it the people had to be able to love both god and each other for that to be true everyone in it is had to be able to say no to love and as soon as that is done we get all manner of evil even though we were sinners god loved us and saved us while maintaining justice goodness and righteousness he didn't lay aside justice by just ignoring our sins he didn't stop being good by accepting a rapist over the rape victim he took on all of our guilt upon himself as the word of god was punished in full for our sins so all of god's justice goodness and righteousness could be satisfied in god's mercy and love through grace through faith in the end and there is an end coming the selfishness of evil and human pride will be judged no secret will be left hidden everything will be exposed and justly judged and if condemned or rewarded
Playing the game of your faith speech and mine, we live in reality, we ponder it and make assertions about it. So we can be correct about some things and others not. It doesn't change if what we assert is true or not; when we get it right or wrong, it will still always be an assertion.
I am saying God is good, righteous, just, Holy, and at every point throughout eternity ...[text shortened]... ret will be left hidden, everything will be exposed and justly judged, and if condemned or rewarded.
I think you are in hairdryer mode.
Which bit of what I said are you ostensibly replying to?
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@fmf saidI'm making no threats; I'm simply stating everything we do will be brought out and judged for what it is; is it good, good; if it is evil, then evil, and if evil is found us, we will be judged for that. Now you may be sitting there saying there is no God over you, and no one can judge me all you want.
You have religious faith.
I don't have religious faith.
Your religious faith tells you I will be brutalized by a grotesque supernatural being for not having your religious faith.
My absence of religious faith makes no ludicrous threats against you.
@kellyjay saidI have no reason to believe your God figure is going to judge me. I think your belief that your God figure is going to judge people ~ including me ~ is a subconscious function of your misanthropy and pessimism - and also, I think, a coping mechanism for you that gives you a sense of purpose in life.
Now you may be sitting there saying there is no God over you, and no one can judge me all you want.
@fmf saidI don't have a God figure, we live in reality created by God, and He will judge us. You again may think you are immune; nothing and no one can judge you. You are constantly judging others, finding fault in their words; you think the God of creation will not judge all things when He calls things into account? It isn't a threat to say every wrong will be dealt with unless you have done wrong, but it is only a warning even then. If you have done no wrong to God or anyone, you have nothing to worry about; if you are guilty, you know it.
So, YOU are now saying I will NOT be tortured forever by your God figure for not sharing your belief in him? Is that what you mean by: "I'm making no threats"?
@kellyjay saidYes, you do. My Muslim neighbour has a God figure. Theistic Jews have a God figure. Sikhs have a God figure. The Balinese woman I am doing some work for today has her Hindu God figures. So, yes. You do. You have a God figure, KellyJay. And you are describing him to me.
I don't have a God figure, we live in reality created by God, and He will judge us.