Will the real Christians stand up?

Originally posted by LemonJello
You sound reasonably tolerant. Good man.

I don't understand the crap about heaven and hell, though. Can you point to even one thing about you that I should view as permanent? If you choke to death on a jawbreaker tomorrow, is there some thing about you that I should think will endure onward? Why isn't it the case that in such an event you -- the person you are -- would simply cease to exist?

For me hell is nothing more than seperation from God and the only thing that can seperate you from God is your sin. For me, sin is nothing more than going against what God wills and he needs your consent to agree with what he has to say. You may argue that God has never talked to you directly, hoewver, have you never gone against your conscience?

In a sense, being seperated from God in this present life can be a certain type of hell. I know, I have been there. Your past "sins" are ever present unless dealt with. It is of my belief that many psychiatric problems have their roots in regards to not being able to deal with certain levels of guilt and/or silencing thier inner voice by ignoring it continually. The old addage, "You can run, but ya can't hide" applies here. Also, Christ said that he that sins becomes a slave of sin and through him can we break the chains of such sin and sources of self loathing.

Now in terms of an eternal hell, once we die it seems Biblcially that we then only exist in a spiritual form. It also appears, from what I know about the Bible, that beings that exist in spiritual form, such as Lucifer, have no chance for repentace. Why this is is uncertain, but there are not examples of this possibility, hence I can only assume it to be impossible. Perhaps it has to do with difference in regards to the concept of time in the material universe compared to that of the spiritual realm? All I can say is be prepared for the transition. Those who are spiritually alive will remain so and those who are spiritually dead will also remain so. To be honest, I think all those who proclaim a belief in heaven verses hell struggle with the concept of eternal seperation from God or an eternal seperation from the source of all love and life. However, just because something is distastefull or abhorrent in no way indicates that it does not exist. I think the urgency for dealing with this problem can be seen in the sacrifice Christ made for us. I don't see Christ giving his life in such a manner unless it be vital for our redemption. After all, Christ begged the Father for another way other than the cross. However, his prayer went unanswered. Although his sacrifice on the cross was abhorrent, it was real and it was vital for our redemption.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It seems like most non-Catholic Christians believe that one only need profess Jesus Christ as one's savior. If this isn't true, then why is it that Christians seem to sin as much as the general public?

I think you will find that there is a difference between sinning and continuing in sin. For example, Christ says that those who come to him screaming, "Lord, Lord, have we not done all of these "good" things in your name?" However, he will look at them and say, "Depart from me, you who WORK iniquity". In other words, either you repent or turn from your sin or you do not.

Now in terms of dealing with sin, Christ says that he has the power to break the chains of sin in your life, hence, one no longer needs to WORK iniquity in their lives continually. As a Christian I have struggled with certain types of sin, however, I continued my path of repentace until such chains have been removed and so I no longer continue in that sin. Either your heart is set upon walking uprightly before your God or it is not. After all, God looks ONLY at your heart. There is no hidding from him. He knows who loves him and who wants to please him and those that do not really care. He knows the difference between those who are doing "works" to get into heaven and those who are trying to please the God they profess to love. I may sin against someone I love, however, if my heart longs to continue to be with them I will repent wholeheartidly before them.

Originally posted by whodey
For me hell is nothing more than seperation from God and the only thing that can seperate you from God is your sin. For me, sin is nothing more than going against what God wills and he needs your consent to agree with what he has to say. You may argue that God has never talked to you directly, hoewver, have you never gone against your conscience?

In a ...[text shortened]... his sacrifice on the cross was abhorrent, it was real and it was vital for our redemption.

OK, so in regards to my question, you seem to be asserting that there is some "spiritual form" of you that will endure beyond your choking on the jawbreaker and subsequent natural death. Now why should I believe that?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
1. The Pope has not said anything. It is the CDF that has published a document with Papal approval.
2. The Pope most certainly has not said that only Catholics are "true Christians". Every validly baptised Christian is a "true Christian".
3. Nor has he said that being Catholic is necessary for salvation.

I think you need better news sources when it comes to religious reporting.

Perhaps. Can you provide a better source of what was actually said?

Originally posted by whodey
I think you will find that there is a difference between sinning and continuing in sin. For example, Christ says that those who come to him screaming, "Lord, Lord, have we not done all of these "good" things in your name?" However, he will look at them and say, "Depart from me, you who WORK iniquity". In other words, either you repent or turn from your sin ...[text shortened]... if my heart longs to continue to be with them I will repent wholeheartidly before them.

Where's the dividing line between "sinning" and "continuing in sin"? Sounds likely to be a rationalization for a lack of true repentance.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
It's no worse than those who say that if one does not believe in the "Trinity" he is not a true Christian......😕

The trinity is fundamental of Christianity. So if you don’t believe it you are not a Christian.

http://www.martygrant.com/christian/fundamentals.htm

Originally posted by LemonJello
OK, so in regards to my question, you seem to be asserting that there is some "spiritual form" of you that will endure beyond your choking on the jawbreaker and subsequent natural death. Now why should I believe that?

Why should you believe that? It is like asking me why you should believe in God. Therefore, if it is proof you are looking for, I offer none. However, there is evidence, just like there is for the existence of a God. For example, I have heard of near death experience where people had begun to hover over their bodies and sometimes even go into another room and over heard conversations that should not have had any knowledge of and when they come back, they can recall what was said verbatum. The most compelling case that I have heard of, however, is a man who was blind since birth. After he was revived he told them that he had seen for the the first time once he left his body and could describe in detail his surroundings not only in the room but in the area outside the room. The clincher was that when he returned to his body, he was blind again.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Where's the dividing line between "sinning" and "continuing in sin"? Sounds likely to be a rationalization for a lack of true repentance.

The dividing line is what God sees when he looks at your heart. He knows who desire to serve him out of love for him and those who simply give lip service to serving him in the hopes of appeasing him into letting them into heaven via works.

Originally posted by whodey
The dividing line is what God sees when he looks at your heart. He knows who desire to serve him out of love for him and those who simply give lip service to serving him in the hopes of appeasing him into letting them into heaven via works.

Can one have one's heart right and continue to sin? I still don't understand the difference between "sinning" and "continuing in sin"?

1 John 3:4 -9:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Can one have one's heart right and continue to sin? I still don't understand the difference between "sinning" and "continuing in sin"?

1 John 3:4 -9:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 [b]Whosoever abid ...[text shortened]... mmit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[/b]

I would say that those who do not seek repentance for things they know to be a sin are the ones who work iniquity. Of coarse the question then arises as to who is really seeking repentace. I would say that God only knows. Christ once said that if your brother comes to you 8 times in a day to seek repentance that you will forgive him 8 times in a day. You may then say that such a person has a liscence to sin. However, there is a price to sinning even though you may be forgiven. Also, the more times you come to ask for repentance for sins that you do not overcome the less likely you will continue to ask for repentance. This is why Christ came. He came so that we might have victory over our sin so that we would not give up a seeminbly unwinable fight.

You are right in that if one walks in love with his fellow man and with God that there is no oppurtunity for sin. Sin is the perfection of the law.

Originally posted by whodey
I would say that those who do not seek repentance for things they know to be a sin are the ones who work iniquity. Of coarse the question then arises as to who is really seeking repentace. I would say that God only knows. Christ once said that if your brother comes to you 8 times in a day to seek repentance that you will forgive him 8 times in a day. You ...[text shortened]... fellow man and with God that there is no oppurtunity for sin. Sin is the perfection of the law.

I have to believe that those who sin, knowingly or not, are "the ones who work iniquity." Iniquity is just another word for "sin". Repentance as in "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life" also requires one to overcome sin. You seem to be seeking an "out".

Originally posted by ryunix
The trinity is fundamental of Christianity. So if you don’t believe it you are not a Christian.

http://www.martygrant.com/christian/fundamentals.htm

Must One Believe in the Trinity to Be Saved?
The answer to this question is no.......
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=275

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I have to believe that those who sin, knowingly or not, are "the ones who work iniquity." Iniquity is just another word for "sin". Repentance as in "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life" also requires one to overcome sin. You seem to be seeking an "out".

Are you saying that you no longer sin? Everyone sins, and it is those who try the hardest to walk upright with God who are most aware of this. If your salvation is based upon you not sinning (i.e. your works), then surely you realize it's hopeless and you are lost. It doesn't matter how small the sin by the way, it's still sin. There is no difference.

If God has a plan to save me, it must not only deal with my past, but with my present and my future. He more than anyone would understand my existential need for guidance and forgiveness (existential in the sense I need it every moment). And of course, that is the answer that Jesus claimed to provide - the gospel - and that is the work of the Holy Spirit within us.

P.S. Iniquity is not the same as sin. The word translated "iniquity" as I understand it implies the propensity toward sin i.e. the tendency within that leads to the sin. Any plan of salvation must deal with both the sin, and the tendency toward sin (iniquity).

P.P.S. 1John 3 is a very interesting chapter, and in combination with other scriptures (in 1 John and elsewhere) suggests that as Christians, doing wrong no longer separates us from God (which is what previously was the effect of sin) i.e. you can no longer "miss it" - which is what sin literally means - because you are covered by God's grace. However we are equally warned that is not a license to keeping sinning. Even if we do, we have "an advocate with the Father" i.e. an avenue of renewed forgiveness through Christ.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I have to believe that those who sin, knowingly or not, are "the ones who work iniquity." Iniquity is just another word for "sin". Repentance as in "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life" also requires one to overcome sin. You seem to be seeking an "out".

Are you saying that you never sin?

Originally posted by t0lkien
Are you saying that you no longer sin? Everyone sins, and it is those who try the hardest to walk upright with God who are most aware of this. If your salvation is based upon you not sinning (i.e. your works), then surely you realize it's hopeless and you are lost. It doesn't matter how small the sin by the way, it's still sin. There is no difference.

If ve "an advocate with the Father" i.e. an avenue of renewed forgiveness through Christ.

I hear Jesus saying that one is capable of overcoming sin. I don't hear him saying "everybody sins and it is hopeless to stop". He says to put the will of God above all else. If one truly does this, how is sin possible?