Will the real Christians stand up?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I guess I can see how you might infer this from what John wrote, but I'm sure you know that John could have meant any number of things. If your inference is correct, I guess that I can't help but find it kind of sad rather than comforting.

It seems to me that Jesus asks his followers to overcome sin. Is there anything that leads you to believe that Jesus thought man incapable of this?

Sure. The bible says that the heart is (incurably) sick.
Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
(NIV)

This is due to the sinful nature we inherited from Adam. There is a story going around about the sin nature and the new nature...."it is like two dogs fighting inside my mind. Who wins the battle?" ...The one we feed. We are to continue in prayer, study and doing what God asks of us. We are to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ. When we make Him Lord, He is in charge not us. We cannot overcome sin on our own. Sure we can discipline our bodies and change habits, but the sin, the evil disires are still in the heart. Paul said he "died daily"...meaning he had to feed the new nature and starve the sin nature. He died to self, ego, and submitted to the Lord even when he didn't feel like it.
How do we overcome sin? By looking at Jesus, and asking for his help through prayer....
Heb 12:1-2
1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
(NKJ)
I have heard many a preacher say that as he matured and did what was right, the more they were conscience of their sin. The good news is we are forgiven of all our sin past, present and future. But applying that forgiveness by not sinning is another thing. I have learned that the closer I stay to the Lord Jesus, the more joy I experience and sin less....

🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Sure. The bible says that the heart is (incurably) sick.
Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
(NIV)

This is due to the sinful nature we inherited from Adam. There is a story going around about the sin nature and the new nature...."it is like two dogs fighting inside my mind. Who wins the battle? that the closer I stay to the Lord Jesus, the more joy I experience and sin less....

🙂

Thanks for this, but does Jesus ever say this? Jesus established a new covenant as I'm sure you know.

Originally posted by t0lkien
So, if you say you believe you can overcome sin in the sense that you never sin again, great. Live it, and let's talk. If you have tried and you can't live it, where do you go then?

"What is impossible with men is possible with God" (Luke 18:27).

It is impossible to live a sin-free life in one's own strength, as Paul points out, "I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out" (Rom. 7:18). The Lord gives his children the will to do what is right, but until they come to an end of themselves and stop attempting the impossible in their own strength, they will never receive the power to do what is right. "For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him" (Philippians 2:13).

What is the purpose of God giving his children the desire to do what is right, if he does not also intend to give them the power to do what is right? As Philippians 2:13 shows us, God does intend to impart the power to do what pleases him.

At the end of Romans 7, Paul describes the state of a born-again sinner who has come to the end of himself (his flesh), who cries, "wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" This is the cry of a man who tried with all his might to live a sinless life, and yet failed. But does Paul suggest that this is the end all be all of the Christian life? No. Read on.

"Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom. 7:25). "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit . . . that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1,4).

It is God's Spirit Who gives the believer the power to have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in him or her, but God's Spirit cannot work until the believer ceases to strive for perfection in the flesh and surrenders completely to God. "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:3).

If we stop at Romans 7:24 and consider the Christian life as one doomed to failure, then we have not known the full blessing which Christ provides. We are saved, yes, but there is so much more which we miss. The bottom line is, if God gives us the desire to do what is right, he will also provide the power to do what is right.

So here is the answer your question, "If you have tried and you can't live it, where do you go then?" --

"What is impossible with men is possible with God" (Luke 18:27).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"What is impossible with men is possible with God" (Luke 18:27).

It is impossible to live a sin-free life in one's own strength, as Paul points out, "I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out" (Rom. 7:18). The Lord gives his children the will to do what is right, but until they come to an end of themselves and ...[text shortened]... n?" --

"What is impossible with men is possible with God" (Luke 18:27).

how far our you from rockferd illnois

Originally posted by LivingForJesus
how far our you from rockferd illnois

Rockford? Why would anyone ask about Rockford?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"What is impossible with men is possible with God" (Luke 18:27).

It is impossible to live a sin-free life in one's own strength, as Paul points out, "I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out" (Rom. 7:18). The Lord gives his children the will to do what is right, but until they come to an end of themselves and ...[text shortened]... n?" --

"What is impossible with men is possible with God" (Luke 18:27).

Perhaps you will answer the question that ThinkOfOne refuses to answer: have you managed to do this?

It's amazing how that question brings only silence - which is my point.

Be careful you don't (innocently) teach others to do what you yourself cannot. Or in the words of the apostles, "lay a burden on others that you yourselves could not bear".

Originally posted by t0lkien
It's amazing how that question brings only silence - which is my point.

Be careful you don't (innocently) teach others to do what you yourself cannot. Or in the words of the apostles, "lay a burden on others that you yourselves could not bear".

You've made no point. The only point that matters is what Jesus asks of you. "Everybody sins and it is hopeless to stop" is a child's argument. Perhaps it's time to mature your faith. I sincerely hope you do.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You've made no point. The only point that matters is what Jesus asks of you. "Everybody sins and it is hopeless to stop" is a child's argument. Perhaps it's time to mature your faith. I sincerely hope you do.

You have said something I have not said (nor believe). However, since you are not willing to answer the simplest question - which is a litmus test for your theology - it's sort of pointless discussing. I will leave you with your theology, and when it breaks you (as it will if you are honest), then you will have to look for the truth beyond it.

My only reason for having this conversation was for those who might be reading and genuinely searching. I would be pained if all they heard was your incomplete version of what the Bible says, and left their search prematurely. People have had a royal gutful of Christians who preach at them what they do not do themselves.

The message of the Gospel is one of hope, love, and acceptance (on God's terms). It is not another law to beat people down with.

Originally posted by t0lkien
You have said something I have not said (nor believe). However, since you are not willing to answer the simplest question - which is a litmus test for your theology - it's sort of pointless discussing. I will leave you with your theology, and when it breaks you (as it will if you are honest), then you will have to look for the truth beyond it.

My only rea ...[text shortened]... f hope, love, and acceptance (on God's terms). It is not another law to beat people down with.

This is what you said:
"Everyone sins, and it is those who try the hardest to walk upright with God who are most aware of this. If your salvation is based upon you not sinning (i.e. your works), then surely you realize it's hopeless and you are lost."

If this doesn't boil down to ""Everybody sins and it is hopeless to stop", then would you be so good as to explain what it really means?

It seems to me that Jesus asks his followers to overcome sin. Is there anything that leads you to believe that Jesus thought man incapable of this?

Originally posted by t0lkien
It's amazing how that question brings only silence - which is my point.

Be careful you don't (innocently) teach others to do what you yourself cannot. Or in the words of the apostles, "lay a burden on others that you yourselves could not bear".

Sorry for the silence. I was away from the computer after my last post.

Are you saying it is impossible to live a righteous life without sin? You are correct. But, again, what is impossible for men is possible with God.

Consider, it is scripturally true that God intends for his children to become more and more like Christ in thought and action, "you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48), "thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee" (John 5:14). If God does not intend to provide the power to live righteously, then why does he ask the impossible from his children? Is Christ laying a burden on us which he does not intend to give us the power to bear? Are these empty requests? Certainly not.

What you are in fact asserting is that what is impossible with men is also impossible with God.

Are we merely saved for eternity, but left to writhe in the misery of sin for the remainder of our lives? No, Christ has given us victory over the flesh, "because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death" (Rom. 8:2).

The burden to live a righteous life is only a burden in so far as we carry it ourselves, and will be until we relinquish that burden into the hands of Jesus Christ. "Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom. 7:24-25), "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Matt. 11:29-30).

Of course, we (Christians) live by faith and not the law, not needing to earn God's favor. "Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law" (Rom. 3:31). How is this so? Because faith in Jesus Christ releases God's power in us, allowing us to live righteous lives, 'establishing the law through faith.'

If you deny that living a righteous life, free from sin, is possible, what you are really saying is that God cannot accomplish his will in us; that God is not all-powerful. And, consequently, that faith in God is of none effect.

We know that God's children are at varying levels of spiritual maturity; some are still bound by the flesh to a great degree, while others are not. If I say (truthfully) that I still fall into sin from time to time, does such a confession 'disprove' scripture? No, of course not. I am a young Christian, still heavily influenced by the world (nevertheless progressively growing in the Lord). However, I do know a great many older Christians who are more Christ-like than I; some who live perpetually in the power of the Spirit and do live righteous lives.

If you say it is impossible, even with God, to live a righteous life free from sin, then you are denying the heart of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The heart of the Gospel, of the Christian life in general, is the desire to be more and more like Jesus Christ. God gives us this desire through His Spirit. Not only that, thank God, he provides the power to fulfill that desire.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Sorry for the silence. I was away from the computer after my last post.

Are you saying it is impossible to live a righteous life without sin? You are correct. But, again, what is impossible for men is possible with God.

Consider, it is scripturally true that God intends for his children to become more and more like Christ in thought and action, rit. Not only that, thank God, he provides the power to fulfill that desire.

No, you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I've already said what I believe - that it *is* possible (living a sinless life is not the heart of the gospel btw; the heart of the gospel is reconciliation with God). But that is only the first part of the story. The truth is it's a process. That's clear from scripture, and from experience.

This is my point. This conversation began with the assertion that "real Christians overcome sin" i.e. if you sin you are somehow not an authentic Christian. THAT is the (bitter, self-righteous) mindset I am challenging.

The fact that I still have not received an answer to the simplest of questions proves my point (this to ThinkOfOne). Because the answer to my question "Are you saying that you don't sin" is, of course that you do still sin. And that's no surprise to anyone, so I don't see why it's so difficult to admit (except that it undermines your theology on this point).

So once we have established that scripture makes it clear that it's possible, and yet neither you nor I know anyone who has achieved it, then we have to dig deeper to discover how to deal with that reality honestly. As Francis Schaeffer put it: "How Should We Then Live?"

Reiterating that something is possible and yet denying the reality that it is actually extraordinarily difficult isn't spiritual, it's cruel (and hypocritical in the truest sense if you can't admit that you yourself don't meet the same standard you are preaching). But the worst of it is that it wounds people who are genuinely trying to approach God, and I have seen that many, many times.

Originally posted by t0lkien
No, you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I've already said what I believe - that it *is* possible (living a sinless life is not the heart of the gospel btw; the heart of the gospel is reconciliation with God). But that is only the first part of the story. The truth is it's a process. That's clear from scripture, and from experience.

This is my point o are genuinely trying to approach God, and I have seen that many, many times.

1) Just because someone chooses not to answer a question doesn't mean that you know the answer.
2) To my knowledge there hasn't been an assertion that "if you sin you are somehow not an authentic Christian."
3) There is nothing "bitter, self-righteous" about stating that "Jesus asks his followers to overcome sin" and in encouraging others to do so.
4) Encouraging someone to do something that is "extraordinarily difficult" isn't necessarily "cruel". Jesus asks his followers to overcome sin. Is Jesus "cruel"? Is John "cruel"? If anything, it is the loving thing to do. Perhaps you should ask yourself, "What is discouraging others from doing so?"

Originally posted by t0lkien
No, you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I've already said what I believe - that it *is* possible (living a sinless life is not the heart of the gospel btw; the heart of the gospel is reconciliation with God). But that is only the first part of the story. The truth is it's a process. That's clear from scripture, and from experience.

This is my point o are genuinely trying to approach God, and I have seen that many, many times.

This conversation began with the assertion that "real Christians overcome sin" i.e. if you sin you are somehow not an authentic Christian. THAT is the (bitter, self-righteous) mindset I am challenging.

I would say, rather, that it is the destiny of Christians to overcome sin. We are called to "put to death the deeds of the flesh" (Rom. 8:13). I don't believe this in any way connotes that we are not genuine believers if we fall into sin. After all, if we never fall into sin, then there would be no "deeds of the flesh" for us to "put to death." The lamentations of Paul in Romans 7 are the lamentations of a genuine Christian wrestling with sin...

living a sinless life is not the heart of the gospel btw; the heart of the gospel is reconciliation with God.

Yes, but reconciliation and victory over sin go hand in hand. God removes our sin-debt, yes, but also provides the power to live "free from the power of sin." Both aspects make up the Good News, and the provision for both was made at Calvary. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So once we have established that scripture makes it clear that it's possible, and yet neither you nor I know anyone who has achieved it, then we have to dig deeper to discover how to deal with that reality honestly. As Francis Schaeffer put it: "How Should We Then Live?"

Of course, it is impossible this side of heaven to "achieve" a state wherein it is impossible to sin. What is possible, though, is to live according to the Spirit, and through the Spirit live free from the power of sin.

"Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace" (Romans 8:5-6).

If we don't let the Spirit have his way, living a life of peace will not be possible. Therefore, even though provision for living a life free from the power of sin has been made, it will always remain possible for a believer to either fail to appropriate God's grace in the first place or, once appropriated, to fall into sin.

"How should we then live?" I think it's obvious: according to the Spirit. That is, doing nothing in our own will and power; ever waiting on the direction and anointing of the Spirit of God.

Reiterating that something is possible and yet denying the reality that it is actually extraordinarily difficult isn't spiritual, it's cruel.

Again, it's not just extraordinarily difficult -- it is impossible. We must come to the end of ourselves before we are able to completely surrender to the Spirit and thereby appropriate God's grace. From beginning to end, accomplishing God's will in our lives is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit.

God's Spirit works in us to will; that is, God gives us the desire to be holy and pleasing to Him. This desire brings us up against the insurmountable wall of the impossibility of ever pleasing God in the flesh (Rom. 7:24), at which point we must acknowledge our helplessness and seek absolute surrender to the Spirit in Christ Jesus (in whose strength we are able to live holy lives). And God also works in us to do, accomplishing his will in us by the power of the Holy Spirit. "What is impossible for men is possible with God..."

[It is] hypocritical in the truest sense if you can't admit that you yourself don't meet the same standard you are preaching

Even though I myself have not led a perfect life, this does not preclude me from reiterating what scripture says, that God calls his children to lives of holiness. After all, this is not my standard, but God's.

It's as if you are saying that, since I do not presently lead a sin-free life, then I must preach a lower standard than God's. But why? Wouldn't doing so be disingenuous? Shouldn't we conform to God's standard, rather than He conform to ours? If there is evidence that it is 'extraordinarily difficult' if not impossible to live free from the power of sin, then this should be a clue that it is God Himself who must accomplish this in us, and not ourselves.

It cannot be a legitimate option simply to throw up our hands in despair and give up trying to be like Christ, concluding that God never meant for us to live holy lives. He does mean for us to live holy lives, and supplies the power to do so in those who let themselves be controlled by the Holy Spirit.

What must be stressed, however, which I think is your point, is that we strive to be like Christ not out of fear of damnation or in order to be "real" Christians, we strive to be like Christ because the Holy Spirit gives us that desire (i.e. sin is not evidence that we aren't "real" Christians, it is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us which is the evidence of our genuineness).

"Know them by their fruits..."

"Children of God" progressively "put to death" the deeds of the flesh; that is, they seek to live holy lives, no matter how often they fail, because the Spirit of God lives in them. They simply cannot continue in sin unabated. Whereas "children of the devil" continue in sin without repentence or remorse, though they may outwardly claim to be Christians.

"Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God" (1 John 3:7-10).

But the worst of it is that it wounds people who are genuinely trying to approach God, and I have seen that many, many times.

If people are genuinely trying to approach God, this is evidence that the Holy Spirit is at work. Sin cannot keep people from God, since there isn't a sin which God cannot forgive. The Lord always forgives, and yet always asks, "Sin no more."

Sorry if I misunderstood you...

You're right, sin cannot keep people from God. But bad theology can.

But we essentially agree - we are just going about slightly different ways of saying it 🙂