Will the real Christians stand up?

Originally posted by whodey
Are you saying that you never sin?

What does it matter what anyone else does? Does that change what Jesus tells you?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I hear Jesus saying that one is capable of overcoming sin. I don't hear him saying "everybody sins and it is hopeless to stop". He says to put the will of God above all else. If one truly does this, how is sin possible?

Yes, I believe that is true and possible. Have I achieved it? No. Has anyone I know achieved it? No. But I am getting better every day. We are saved "by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God lest any should boast". It's God's work and gift of grace that saves me, not any of my own doing. All I can do is accept the gift.

But enough book learning. Let me speak to you as a normal person to a normal person. If you continue down the road you are speaking of in these posts, that is "I must be perfect and not sin in order to be a real Christian", you will not only fail and fall, you will break yourself. That is law, and the law kills. You are not an exception. It will beat you too.

Jesus said the burden he places on us is light. You can't keep the law. You can't. That was God's whole point of giving the law. It was to show us our condition, and our need (the scripture says the law was a "schoolmaster" to lead us to Christ; that word is translated from a Greek word that referred to someone who went around and gathered all the students into class, often with a small whip, which is a beautiful image of what the law did). All that Jesus asks is that we love the lord our god with all our heart, all our mind, and all our strength. and love others as ourselves. I can't keep the law, but I CAN do that. I can love, and in doing so I will fulfill the spirit of the law.

Can I love perfectly? No. But just because we can't do it perfectly doesn't mean we can't do it substantially. God acknowledged our inability to perform, and covered us with grace. If God can give me grace, than the least I can do is accept that grace. And you know, if I can't allow myself grace, I am unlikely to extend it to others.

And love will get me much closer to perfection than law anyway. How's that for irony.

Originally posted by t0lkien
Yes, I believe that is true and possible. Have I achieved it? No. Has anyone I know achieved it? No. But I am getting better every day. We are saved "by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God lest any should boast". It's God's work and gift of grace that saves me, not any of my own doing. All I can do is accept the gift.

But e ...[text shortened]... ve will get me much closer to perfection than law anyway. How's that for irony.

You say you "believe that is true and possible", yet the rest of your post seems to be saying that you believe that it is not possible.

Rather than trying to convince others that it's not possible, might you not best come to understand what's required to make it possible?

Let me ask you something. Are you saying you believe you don't sin?

Originally posted by t0lkien
Let me ask you something. Are you saying you believe you don't sin?

I believe that one is capable of overcoming sin. I believe that that is what Jesus asks of his followers.

Originally posted by Jay Joos
i agree....the confessional is just one excuse in many for Catholics to pass the buck for sinning!!!!

the pope is just a man catholics should not say they are the only Christians I am babist and I am a born again beliver

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I believe that one is capable of overcoming sin. I believe that that is what Jesus asks of his followers.

But you didn't answer my question.

Originally posted by t0lkien
But you didn't answer my question.

I wanted to stay on topic. What's the relevancy of your question?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I wanted to stay on topic. Why do you think that it's relevant?

Now you are just being evasive, but I'll bite.

It's relevant because you are "theory crafting". Lots of things work in theory (though your exegesis on this point is not necessarily correct - but that's another, possibly very long, discussion). Communism works in theory - quite beautifully. It just doesn't work in practice because it ignores the reality of fallen human nature.

If you say something is a particular way, but neither you nor anyone else can live it (which is the only proof of any philosophy), then there is something wrong with your theory.

That is my point. Was the law perfect? Jesus said it was (and so did Paul) and He fulfilled it. Could anybody but Jesus keep it? No, and that was the point. In reality you are making another law for yourself, and setting yourself up for failure. If that wasn't so, there wouldn't be the many scriptures throughout the NT dealing with the other side of this.

So, if you say you believe you can overcome sin in the sense that you never sin again, great. Live it, and let's talk. If you have tried and you can't live it, where do you go then?

Originally posted by t0lkien
Now you are just being evasive, but I'll bite.

It's relevant because you are "theory crafting". Lots of things work in theory (though your exegesis on this point is not necessarily correct - but that's another, possibly very long, discussion). Communism works in theory - quite beautifully. It just doesn't work in practice because it ignores the reality of ...[text shortened]... Live it, and let's talk. If you have tried and you can't live it, where do you go then?

What did you mean when you replied:
Yes, I believe that is true and possible.

To:
I hear Jesus saying that one is capable of overcoming sin. I don't hear him saying "everybody sins and it is hopeless to stop".

If you believe that this is true, then I'd think that you'd believe that one can live it. If you dont believe that it is true, then what do you believe that Jesus asks of his followers?

Originally posted by Jay Joos
i agree....the confessional is just one excuse in many for Catholics to pass the buck for sinning!!!!

Sorry -- that's a load of carp. During the sacrament of reconciliation Catholics ... unlike many other groups... have to take full responsibility for their sins. There is no laying the blame on anyone else. I've never met anyone who thought they could just do whatever they wanted because there was a priest somewhere ready to hear their confession. I'd be curious to know if you have an actual source of information or if you are passing along nonsense prejudices picked up here and there.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What did you mean when you replied:
[b]Yes, I believe that is true and possible.

To:
I hear Jesus saying that one is capable of overcoming sin. I don't hear him saying "everybody sins and it is hopeless to stop".

If you believe that this is true, then I'd think that you'd believe that one can live it. If you dont believe that it is true, then what do you believe that Jesus asks of his followers?[/b]

Again you have dodged the personal implications of the position you are taking. I'm coming to the conclusion that you are not being entirely honest... so maybe we should end the discussion here.

The answer to your question is in scripture. The book of Romans is a great start.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I believe that one is capable of overcoming sin. I believe that that is what Jesus asks of his followers.

I agree, but with His help. As we "put on' the new nature we sin less, but God then reveals more sin in our hearts. We will not be free of that sinful nature until He returns and we receive our glorified bodies.
A good example is in....
I Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(NKJ)

What I find interesting here is the word "we" ....John was a disciple of Jesus. He sat at Jesus feet and heard Him teach in the flesh. He wrote a few books in the bible and at this point He was in his 60's! Yet he was still dealing with sin. To me, this is comforting.....

Originally posted by t0lkien
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]What did you mean when you replied:
[b]Yes, I believe that is true and possible.

To:
I hear Jesus saying that one is capable of overcoming sin. I don't hear him saying "everybody sins and it is hopeless to stop".

If you believe that this is true, then I'd think that you'd believe that one can liv here.

The answer to your question is in scripture. The book of Romans is a great start.[/b]

[/b]Perhaps your frustration comes not from my "not being entirely honest", but rather from the implications of your possibly being wrong. I believe that you are capable of getting past this as we all are.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I agree, but with His help. As we "put on' the new nature we sin less, but God then reveals more sin in our hearts. We will not be free of that sinful nature until He returns and we receive our glorified bodies.
A good example is in....
I Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our ...[text shortened]... point He was in his 60's! Yet he was still dealing with sin. To me, this is comforting.....

I guess I can see how you might infer this from what John wrote, but I'm sure you know that John could have meant any number of things. If your inference is correct, I guess that I can't help but find it kind of sad rather than comforting.

It seems to me that Jesus asks his followers to overcome sin. Is there anything that leads you to believe that Jesus thought man incapable of this?