witchcraft

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Ok, but generally when someone mentions the occult, "hidden" is not what comes to mind...but for your sake, here are a couple sections in the bible..

2 Chr 33:6
6 Also he caused his sons to pass through the fire in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom; he practiced soothsaying, used witchcraft and sorcery, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did mu ...[text shortened]... know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
(NKJ)

🙂

Yes, but you are speaking as a Christian, and as one who adheres to a particular book (the Bible) as the ultimate word. You must understand that this is not the view of all people.

Your viewpoints hinge on the assumed ultimate authority of the Bible. Since you cannot demonstrably prove the Bible's ultimate authority, your viewpoints hinge on faith, not reason. So attempting to use reason to justify your arguments can never fully succeed. You have to admit, that in the end, your's is a religion of faith above all else. This is because citing the Bible and what it says does not qualify as "reasoned proof" for one who does not hold the Bible as ultimate authority.

For pagans, including practicing Witches, they also adhere to a faith -- a faith in their particular deities. In their faith, they do not worship evil, and nor are they irresponsible members of society. They are concerned with healing and their spiritual progression, as well as their particular spiritual community. They even believe in an afterlife, a heaven-world called "Summerland". And no, they do not ride on broomsticks or sacrifice infants or goats. About 95% of what is commonly thought about witches is pure myth. This has been largely substantiated for a long time. Remember, the last so-called Witch was burned at the stake over 200 years ago.

Given all these attributes, how are Witches that different from Christians? In details maybe, but not in terms of the criteria outlined above, ie., faith, spiritual progression, community, practices, rituals, etc.

Some good source texts for the history of modern Witchcraft and Pagan faiths are Margot Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon", Starhawk's "The Spiral Dance", Gerald Gardner's "Witchcraft Today" (written in the 50s), or Viviane Crowley's "Pheonix From the Flame".

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You do not advise people to engage in withcraft, now do you ?

No, I don't. I only suggested she show a respectful interest in faith that was not practiced by her as I would ask them to do the same.

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
Yes, but you are speaking as a Christian, and as one who adheres to a particular book (the Bible) as the ultimate word. You must understand that this is not the view of all people.

Your viewpoints hinge on the assumed ultimate authority of the Bible. Since you cannot demonstrably prove the Bible's ultimate authority, your viewpoints hinge on faith, ...[text shortened]... 's "Witchcraft Today" (written in the 50s), or Viviane Crowley's "Pheonix From the Flame".

I know what you are saying and sympathize with the common notion of Wicca, that it is broomsticks, etc. But I cannot reply in any other way, since yes,I believe the bible is the ultimate authority for life.
I know that there are many sincere people in their religions, including Wicca. And that they believe they are doing good. I can respect that, but I must say, and have said before, sincerity is no gaurantee for truth.
Having said that, I guess we are at an impasse here, for now. My belief is that anything apart from Christ is error, but I am not here to condemn you either. All I can suggest is that you keep an open mind. I have never studied Wicca, but have read a few testimonials about people that were involved with "spirit guides", mediums and the occult in general. They were very happy to get away from it, and I am putting that mildly.
God be with you.......CB

What better thread than this to announce a new Ivory Tower contribution. As many of you know the Ivory Tower occasionally presents some of the most enlightening and thought provoking ideas in the forums. You never know what you will get. Award winning moving reviews. Parenting advice. It's all good, baby!

This here next adventure of the Ivory Tower is going to be somewhat related to a thread I started some time back to give you all on tha other side of the pond a flava of our religion ova here to help explain why we got so many damn atheists ova here. It was called the "deliver me, Jesus" quotes. I believe even Ivanhoe was deeply troubled by what he read and even shared a brief moment of empathy wit me about what we have to go through on Sunday moaning ova here.

OK, but anyway, this new Ivory Tower thread is going to be an indepth look at popular preachas who sometimes find themselves on TV. As it seems we got us a new addition on tha site to hold our feet to the theological fire, I want to dedicate this new thread to Checkbaitor and hope he will offer constructive theological critique on this thread.

I will entitle my new Ivory Tower thread the "Highway to Hell Expose". Blessings to all of ya.

Originally posted by kirksey957
What better thread than this to announce a new Ivory Tower contribution. As many of you know the Ivory Tower occasionally presents some of the most enlightening and thought provoking ideas in the forums. You never know what you will get. Award winning moving reviews. Parenting advice. It's all good, baby!

This here next adventure of the Ivory Tow ...[text shortened]... will entitle my new Ivory Tower thread the "Highway to Hell Expose". Blessings to all of ya.

LOOSE MY MONEY !

Originally posted by kirksey957
What better thread than this to announce a new Ivory Tower contribution. As many of you know the Ivory Tower occasionally presents some of the most enlightening and thought provoking ideas in the forums. You never know what you will get. Award winning moving reviews. Parenting advice. It's all good, baby!

This here next adventure of the Ivory Tow ...[text shortened]... will entitle my new Ivory Tower thread the "Highway to Hell Expose". Blessings to all of ya.

Man o man...your tough!.I saw a little of the site...LOL...will look for the new thread.😉

I know what you are saying and sympathize with the common notion of Wicca, that it is broomsticks, etc.

Perhaps best depicted in the green skinned witch of The Wizard of Oz...very iconic and an image that stuck, I think.

But I cannot reply in any other way, since yes,I believe the bible is the ultimate authority for life.

Yes, your path is devotional (to Christ), and ultimately faith based, I agree.

I know that there are many sincere people in their religions, including Wicca. And that they believe they are doing good. I can respect that, but I must say, and have said before, sincerity is no gaurantee for truth.

How then would you link "truth" with "faith"? Is something true because it is believed to be true? That would seem to be a dicey criteria for truth.

Perhaps we can explore this, time permitting.

Having said that, I guess we are at an impasse here, for now. My belief is that anything apart from Christ is error, but I am not here to condemn you either.

Which would be difficult, since I've not yet shared with you my own views, LOL. I've simply provided some background for paganism and witchcraft. I may be sympathetic to Pagan and Wicca, but I am a practitioner of neither.

All I can suggest is that you keep an open mind.

I've made an near life long informal study of most major religions, which has required an open mind, to be sure. I see also that you are somewhat informed on Wicca, which is good. I encourage that sort of non-judgmentalism. It's what might be called a scientific approach to spirituality, that being to study it first before assuming one knows it, or that one has the right to pronounce moral judgment on behalf of the God of one's chosen faith. Judging that way is a path fraught with risk, and has caused great troubles on collective levels before. It still continues to plague humanity.

I have never studied Wicca, but have read a few testimonials about people that were involved with "spirit guides", mediums and the occult in general. They were very happy to get away from it, and I am putting that mildly.

Select testimonials can lead to notoriously distorted understandings, in any field of learning.

Admittedly, Wicca/Witchcraft is a field of experience that seems to draw younger people, especially. I'm not sure why; perhaps because they see in it some sort of outlet for their desire to rebel against more established institutions, such as Christianity. But when one actually reads the literature of serious scholars and researchers in the field, one's eyes are opened to a whole new approach to spirituality, albeit an old and less popular one nowadays. (The actual number of Witches in North America, for example, is supposedly only in the thousands, as opposed to probably over 100 million Christians).

God be with you

Likewise. 🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I don't care what century it is....Satan and his demons don't either. And I mix witchcraft, uoiji boards and the rest in one term...The Occult.
The problem with you "natural" people who reject God and His mercy, is you have no understanding of how demons and the rest of the spirit world operate.
John 10:10
10 "The thief does not come except to s ...[text shortened]... e the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
(NKJ)

😉

As you might imagine, quoting bible passages doesn't do much for me. But if you're talking about literal demons (as opposed to figurative ones) then I think you need to up your medication a bit.

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
[b]I know what you are saying and sympathize with the common notion of Wicca, that it is broomsticks, etc.

Perhaps best depicted in the green skinned witch of The Wizard of Oz...very iconic and an image that stuck, I think.

But I cannot reply in any other way, since yes,I believe the bible is the ultimate authority for life.

Yes, yo ...[text shortened]... as opposed to probably over 100 million Christians).

God be with you

Likewise. 🙂[/b]

Admittedly, Wicca/Witchcraft is a field of experience that seems to draw younger people, especially. I'm not sure why; perhaps because they see in it some sort of outlet for their desire to rebel against more established institutions, such as Christianity.

I am sure part of it is that it is associated with things which are fun to young people like interesting sex; polyamory, sheer lustful sex, etc. In general it's just fun and open to passions and pleasures that Christians repress. That openness speaks to young people who want to enjoy healthy sensual pleasures and resent the repressive nature of Christianity. That's my analysis as an outsider who doesn't know much about it anyway.

Originally posted by rwingett
As you might imagine, quoting bible passages doesn't do much for me. But if you're talking about literal demons (as opposed to figurative ones) then I think you need to up your medication a bit.

Yes I am talking real, and literal demons. They even have names, ranks, etc. Satan himself being the head. And I don't take medication.
I know this is hard for you to believe, but, hey, you are free to do whatever.
What you do not realize is that your life hangs in the balance. And someday you will be held to account.
Rather than mock God and spiritual matters, you should be doing some serious searching....and it is God whom you mock, what I have stated, comes from His Holy Word.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
[b]Admittedly, Wicca/Witchcraft is a field of experience that seems to draw younger people, especially. I'm not sure why; perhaps because they see in it some sort of outlet for their desire to rebel against more established institutions, such as Christianity.

I am sure part of it is that it is associated with things which are fun to young peop ...[text shortened]... ure of Christianity. That's my analysis as an outsider who doesn't know much about it anyway.[/b]

The misnomer is that Christianity is repressive....when in reality it is an exciting, glorious, adventure.
That is why I stress deep study of God's Word! Usually what people say is a lie, and the opposite is true! Walking with the Lord Jesus is fun. He reveals new things, He has a sense of humor, but most of all, He loves with a passion!
It's like Niagra Falls....ever wonder where this water comes from? It just keeps coming and coming, day after day....well the love of God is like that! only multiply that by a thousand!
Remember this....Satan is at war with God...he will try to discredit God, mock His Word, he wants you to think God waits with a hammer to hit you over the head, first time we screw up! NO NO NO! A thousand times no...We need to read and study the bible, the culture at the time, 1611 English, bible maps, etc. He rewards those who diligently seek Him! Thats in Hebrews....and He cannot lie! People need to hold God to His Word....He backs it up 100% of the time.

Originally posted by Metamorphosis


How then would you link "truth" with "faith"? Is something true because it is believed to be true? That would seem to be a dicey criteria for truth.

Perhaps we can explore this, time permitting.




Perhaps we can explore this, time permitting.

I don't....There is only one truth....Faith is (pistis) or believing.
People make a big deal about "faith"...but all it is, is believing....as in do you believe God will heal?,or supply all your need?(not greed)..God requires believing....Believing is increased through love, primarily...and study, learning about God then "knowing" Him personally.
It is like any human relationship, you first spend time with a person, then love and trust come later....Well God is Spirit, you can't "see" Him, but we have His Word. He "inspired" His Word...it is as good as if God Himself wrote it....and it reveals Him...That is why the bible is under constant attack and scrutiny...nothing wrong with questioning, but to attack? These people will never come to know Him, all they are looking for is to discredit God and His Word...they, as others have said, are....unwitting pawns.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The misnomer is that Christianity is repressive....when in reality it is an exciting, glorious, adventure.
That is why I stress deep study of God's Word! Usually what people say is a lie, and the opposite is true! Walking with the Lord Jesus is fun. He reveals new things, He has a sense of humor, but most of all, He loves with a passion!
It's like N ...[text shortened]... ws....and He cannot lie! People need to hold God to His Word....He backs it up 100% of the time.

Awesome. So Christianity doesn't discourage hot promiscuous sex?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Awesome. So Christianity doesn't discourage hot promiscuous sex?

Of course it does...but there are more rewarding and exciting things in life than lust. You are thinking carnally not spiritually.

I know what you are saying...sin is fun, that is why it is so enticing....but it leads to death and destruction....

Odd, but since I was a child, I always enjoyed the smell of gasoline...I don't know why, it just has a pleasant smell, but I know that if I drink it, I die... 🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Of course it does...but there are more rewarding and exciting things in life than lust. You are thinking carnally not spiritually.

I know what you are saying...sin is fun, that is why it is so enticing....but it leads to death and destruction....

Odd, but since I was a child, I always enjoyed the smell of gasoline...I don't know why, it just has a pleasant smell, but I know that if I drink it, I die... 🙂

If you are comparing sex to gas, then your oil might need changing...

😕