1. Standard membersonship
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    10 Jul '14 04:231 edit
    Not that we seek the glory from government or the praises from men, but our late Brother Witness Lee received a recognition from the Congressman Joseph R. Pitts of Pennsylvania in the House of Representatives on April 29th, 2014. The original text is copied below with link to the original document. Praise the Lord!

    -

    WATCHMAN NEE AND WITNESS LEE

    HON. JOSEPH R. PITTS OF PENNSYLVANIA

    IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

    Tuesday, April 29, 2014


    Mr. PITTS. Mr. Speaker, a little over four years ago my esteemed colleague from New Jersey, the honorable CHRIS SMITH, rose in this chamber to bring due attention to one of the great Christians of the twentieth century— the noted Chinese teacher and church-planter, Watchman Nee. Today, I rise to complete the circle on this compelling story by honoring Watchman Nee’s closest co-worker, Witness Lee. Together they labored tirelessly in China from 1932 until the conquest of mainland China by the Communist Red Army under Mao Tse Tung in 1949. Today, the story of Watchman Nee is somewhat well known, given his numerous writings that have become Christian classics, such as The Normal Christian Life and Sit, Walk, Stand. Capping his inspirational biography was his martyrdom in a Chinese labor farm in 1972.

    Witness Lee’s story is less known in the West but is in no way less significant. Although Nee was the clear leader when they labored together in China, it was left to Witness Lee, to preserve and continue their work outside of China and to spread it far beyond the Chinese-speaking world. When it became apparent in 1949 that the Communists would prevail in China, Watchman Nee insisted that Witness Lee emigrate to carry on their work in Taiwan and throughout the Far East. Lee agreed. Subsequent developments not only validated Nee’s insight (he was imprisoned shortly thereafter, and the churches raised up under his and Lee’s ministry were forced underground), but also confirmed that their message and ministry had the potential to reach far beyond China.

    Almost immediately Lee’s ministry began to have a profound impact in Taiwan. Tens of thousands turned to Jesus Christ for their salvation and began congregating in simple, New Testament churches, as their Chinese brethren had done in China during the previous two decades. Today, there are more than 200 such local churches in Taiwan with more than 200,000 believers. It is a similar story in the Far East and Australasia, with churches established in the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Japan, Korea, New Zealand and Australia.


    Read the rest - http://beta.congress.gov/crec/2014/04/29/CREC-2014-04-29-pt1-PgE621-3.pdf


    Mr. Speaker, I call upon the Chinese government today to release all those being held simply because of their faith in Christ and to abandon this national campaign to discredit and distort the record of two brave followers of the One who came with the message of salvation, forgiveness and peace, and instead, to celebrate with us the contributions of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee to believers the world over.


    http://beta.congress.gov/crec/2014/04/29/CREC-2014-04-29-pt1-PgE621-3.pdf
  2. Standard membersonship
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    10 Jul '14 04:38
    Some may ask why a servant of God would be both spoken against so strongly from people like RJHinds and yet also honored by others.

    It was a mark of the early apostles that they had said about them good reports simultaneously with bad reports.

    Second Corinthians 6:18 -

    New Living Translation
    We serve God whether people honor us or despise us, whether they slander us or praise us. We are honest, but they call us impostors.

    English Standard Version
    through honor and dishonor, through slander and praise. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true;

    New American Standard Bible
    by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; regarded as deceivers and yet true;

    King James Bible
    By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
  3. Standard memberRJHinds
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    10 Jul '14 07:182 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    Some may ask why a servant of God would be both spoken against so strongly from people like RJHinds and yet also honored by others.

    It was a mark of the early apostles that they had said about them good reports simultaneously with bad reports.

    Second Corinthians 6:18 -

    [b] New Living Translation
    We serve God whether people honor us ...[text shortened]...
    By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
    [/b]
    If you can prove that Witness Lee was not teaching a heretical doctrine concerning the Trinity to Americans, then I will retract my so-called bad report. I gave no bad report concerning Watchman Nee, because I have no statements from Him to evaluate.
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    10 Jul '14 08:46
    Originally posted by sonship
    Not that we seek the glory from government or the praises from men, but our late Brother Witness Lee received a recognition from the Congressman Joseph R. Pitts of Pennsylvania in the House of Representatives on April 29th, 2014. The original text is copied below with link to the original document. Praise the Lord!

    -

    [b] WATCHMAN NEE AND WITNES ...[text shortened]... orld over.


    http://beta.congress.gov/crec/2014/04/29/CREC-2014-04-29-pt1-PgE621-3.pdf
    I've read several of Nee's books but not Lee's.

    Nee's books are excellent.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    10 Jul '14 10:081 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I've read several of Nee's books but not Lee's.

    Nee's books are excellent.
    Do you recall Watchman Nee saying the following?

    "THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father."

    Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, p. 18-19.

    "The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate Persons or three Gods; they are one God, one reality, one person."

    Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripaetite Man, 1970, p. 48.

    ..."the entire Godhead, the Triune God, became flesh."

    Witness Lee, God's New Testament Economy, 1986, p. 230.
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    10 Jul '14 20:08
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Do you recall Watchman Nee saying the following?

    [b]"THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father."


    Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, p. 18-19.

    "The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate Persons or thr ...[text shortened]... the Triune God, became flesh."

    Witness Lee, God's New Testament Economy, 1986, p. 230.[/b]
    And your point is what?
  7. Standard membersonship
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    10 Jul '14 20:386 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    If you can prove that Witness Lee was not teaching a heretical doctrine concerning the Trinity to Americans, then I will retract my so-called bad report. I gave no bad report concerning Watchman Nee, because I have no statements from Him to evaluate.
    Do you really mean that? It would be good if you really mean it.

    I think I have ALREADY showed you that Witness Lee taught the truth and even more the experience of the Trinity quite biblically.

    Part of the problem is that he did not always speak in the manner of a systematic theologian but often more as a spiritual coach. Sometimes he was systematic. And I showed you that on the specific books in which he outlined biblical truths in a systematic scheme, all proper bases were covered.

    You cannot expect a gospel preacher to not use at times hyperbolic expressions to urge people to be saved. I'll speak to that latter.

    First a little light for you on the Watchman Nee issue.

    The truth of the matter is that Watchman Nee was opposed also by western missionaries because of his practice of the local ground. But they did realize that he had some good spiritual things to say about personal spirituality.

    SO, what happened was that publishers began to PUSH his messages which involved personal spirituality only. So everybody likes personal spirituality and they thought Watchman Nee was a good guy helping all us Christians to be more spiritual.

    But the messages on church practice they ignored and suppressed for the most part. (Some exceptions existed).

    So Watchman Nee, though he was opposed and criticized by Western missionaries, he was "championed" selectively for his messages which help people in personal spirituality.

    I read those books too and loved them. Then I came across some books published by the local churches translators (at the Stream Publishers), by Watchman Nee on the practice of the local church life.

    The first I saw was called "Further Talks on the Church Life". I wondered WHY I had never seen this book before.

    For the most part Christian publishers pushed Nee's messages that did not involved church practice in favor of more popular books on personal spirituality.

    To be fair, one exception was a book published by CFP called "Assembling Together" . In that book there was a translation of a Watchman Nee message which the publishers called aptly - "Which Church Should I Join?"

    That chapter of that book does more faithfully record Watchman Nee's exposition of "One City - One Church".

    So now you may understand WHY Christians love to read books by Watchman Nee. It is because mistakenly they have been led to believe that Watchman Nee was DIFFERENT from Witness Lee. And he was NOT.

    He who has seen LEE has seen NEE ! lol! They were the same in that regard concerning the local ground of the churches.


    Slowly, SOME people are beginning to realize this.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    10 Jul '14 20:561 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Do you recall Watchman Nee saying the following?

    [b]"THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father."


    Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, p. 18-19.

    "The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate Persons or thr ...[text shortened]... the Triune God, became flesh."

    Witness Lee, God's New Testament Economy, 1986, p. 230.[/b]
    That is a perfectly fair question which will require some study.

    In the mean time contemplate a little. Books on personal spirituality by Watchman Nee were pushed by well meaning publishers. Books on messages given by the same speaker on the churching of believers were ignored and/or suppressed.

    This came down to you and others misled that somehow "Watchman Nee we like. But this other person Witness Lee was different. "

    That is mythology in terms of the local ground of the church and many other matters.

    Now your challenge on statements by Nee on the Trinity, I will research.
  9. Standard membersonship
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    10 Jul '14 21:061 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Do you recall Watchman Nee saying the following?

    [b]"THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father."


    Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, p. 18-19.

    "The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate Persons or thr ...[text shortened]... the Triune God, became flesh."

    Witness Lee, God's New Testament Economy, 1986, p. 230.[/b]
    You referred to a book "Concerning the Triune God" on page 18-19.

    Make sure you have the proper title. I do not find that specific title.
    Please verify that that is the proper title.
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Jul '14 00:27
    Originally posted by divegeester
    And your point is what?
    I am not making any point. I am just asking a question.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    11 Jul '14 00:583 edits
    The Challenge:

    Do you recall Watchman Nee saying the following?

    "THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father."

    Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, p. 18-19.

    "The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate Persons or thr ...[text shortened]... the Triune God, became flesh."


    I find no exact equivalent word for word yet. I do find that the Person of Jesus bearing our sins was the Person of God bearing our sins.

    I would refer you to these words by Watchman Nee in the book "The Gospel of God" Vol. 1, of [b]"The Collected Works of Watchman Nee"

    The chapter is on "The Righteousness of God" and Watchman Nee speaks of Christ and God in the operation of redemption.

    Therefore, Jesus the Nazarene came and bore our sins in His body onto the cross. God Himself came to bear our sins. Our sins were judged by God in the person of Jesus Christ. The blood of the Lord Jesus shed on the cross is proof of this judgment.


    Notice Watchman Nee said that God Himself came to bear our sins.

    The cross is also the place where God's love is manifested. The burden for our sins should be on us. If we do not bear it, it is unrighteous. But to bear such a burden is too much for us. For this reason, He came and bore it for us. That God was willing to bear the burden shows His love. That God actually did bear the burden shows His righteousness. For God to have us bear the punishment is righteousness without love. For God to have us not bear the punishment is love without righteousness. Because He takes away the punishment and bears it for us, there is both righteousness and love.


    [my bolding]

    THE LORD JESUS BEING BOTH GOD AND MAN
    FOR THE ACCOMPLISHMENT OF REDEMPTION


    The first thing we have to see is that the Lord Jesus is God. We may say that only God can bear man's sin. Never consider the Lord Jesus as a third person coming to die a substitutionary death. Do not think that God is one party, we are another party, and the Lord Jesus is a third party. The Bible never considers the Lord Jesus as a third party. On the contrary, it considers Him as the first party. You may have been told that the gospel is like a debtor, a lender, and the lender's son. The debtor has no money to pay back his debt. The lender, being very severe, insists on the payment. But the lender's son steps forth to pay the debt on behalf of the debtor, and the debtor becomes free.



    his is the gospel that man preaches today. But this is not the real gospel. If this were the case, at least two points would not be fair and would be contrary to the Bible. First, this kind of understanding makes God the mean One and the Lord Jesus the gracious One. In such an illustration, we do not see God loving the world. Rather, we see only His righteous demand and the demand of the law. We see a severe God, One who is without grace and One whose words to man are always harsh. We see that the Lord Jesus loves us and gives grace to us. This is a wrong gospel. However, although this is a wrong gospel, God still uses it. Actually, I was saved through this kind of illustration. But although I was saved, during the first three years I could never praise God. I always felt that the Lord Jesus was good, that I should thank and praise Him, that without Him everything was hopeless, and that it was fortunate that He came.
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Jul '14 01:10
    Originally posted by sonship
    You referred to a book [b]"Concerning the Triune God" on page 18-19.

    Make sure you have the proper title. I do not find that specific title.
    Please verify that that is the proper title.[/b]
    Actually the title of the book is "Concerning the Triune God: The Father, the Son, and the Spirit" 1973. It is the first book listed here:

    http://an-open-letter.org/resources/the-triune-god/
  13. Standard membersonship
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    11 Jul '14 01:355 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Actually the title of the book is "Concerning the Triune God: The Father, the Son, and the Spirit" 1973. It is the first book listed here:

    http://an-open-letter.org/resources/the-triune-god/
    Here are the Section headings of that book.

    1.) A MYSTERY OF MYSTERIES

    2.) NOT UNDERSTANDING BUT ENJOYING

    3.) GOD BEING UNIQUELY ONE

    4.) GOD SPEAKING AS "I" AND ALSO AS "US"

    5.) THE MATTER OF THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE SPIRIT

    That section seems to be the longest in the book

    6.) ALL THREE -THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE SPIRIT- BEING GOD

    Looks like a well balanced and well rounded presentation to me.

    7.) THE SON BEING THE FATHER, AND THE SON BEING ALSO THE SPIRIT


    This comes to the portion which is hard for some too objective people to handle. But this book is well rounded and presents God from the varied angles revealed in Scripture.

    8.) THE SON WHO PRAYS BEING THE FATHER WHO LISTENS

    Looks to me that Witness Lee was not about to neglect this side of the mystery, namely that there is a distinction between Son and Father.

    Are you sure your critics didn't just isolate one "shocking" quote to form their kangaroo court ?

    WHY would Witness Lee have included a section on the Son praying and the Father hearing if he intended to teach heresy that Modalism makes it impossible to tell distinction between Son and Father ?

    9.) THE REASON GOD IS THREE-IN-ONE


    Thank God the REASON is not just so men can have a perplexing theological doctrine only for the objective mentality.

    10.) THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE SPIRIT ALL BEING IN US

    11.) “CHRIST IS THE SPIRIT”—THE SCRIPTURAL SAYING

    12.) THE TRIUNE GOD BEING WHOLLY A MATTER OF THE SPIRIT




    I'll find your specific quote latter. But this demonstrates to me that Witness Lee decided to present a well rounded presentation of the Trinity and not push one aspect to the detriment of any other.
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    11 Jul '14 01:481 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    You referred to a book [b]"Concerning the Triune God" on page 18-19.

    Make sure you have the proper title. I do not find that specific title.
    Please verify that that is the proper title.[/b]
    This is what you are concerned with.

    "THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father."

    Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, p. 18-19.


    In the book that you referenced there is a section on the Son praying TO the Father and the Father hearing Him pray.

    OBVIOUSLY Witness Lee would have excluded this section altogether if he wanted to teach the Son is the Father is the ONLY side of the mystery of God's nature that the Bible presents.

    Since he INCLUDED a section on One praying to the Other, his presentation was fair, representative of the plenary revelation of the Scripture.

    You had a kangaroo court convening there. They sat down to a turkey dinner and hunted for a bone to choke on.

    Your second sample:


    "The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate Persons or thr ...[text shortened]... the Triune God, became flesh."


    Witness Lee here says that the three are not separate Persons.
    The operative word there is "SEPARATE".

    He did not say that they were not three Persons. He said they were not three "SEPARATE" Persons.

    And this is born out that the three of the Godhead can never be separated though they are distinct.
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Jul '14 02:57
    Originally posted by sonship
    This is what you are concerned with.

    [b]"THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father."

    Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, p. 18-19.


    In the book that you referenced there is a section on the Son praying TO ...[text shortened]... this is born out that the three of the Godhead can never be separated though they are distinct.[/b]
    A ten year member of Lee's Local Church said the following:

    "The doctrinal matters are harder to pin on them, because Lee has said just about everything and its opposite. I even remember him bragging in trainings about being able to contradict himself and get away with it. The example I recall is him advocating tritheism in one long message, and in the next, modalism. He said both were biblical. He seemed to revel in the nonsense of it all."

    http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Testimoniesoftruth.htm

    I believe this ten year member and student of Witness Lee says it well. You can believe what you will and I will believe as I will and so there is no need for us to continue, since as you said, we are just talking past each other.
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