Witness Lee honored in US House of Representatives

Hello everyone!

I'm new to this thread which I found this to be interesting. I'm from the Philippines, the church where I belong is at the church in Dipolog City. So, I'm not that good in English at all. Please, if ever I make mistakes or some of my sentences are contradictory or ironic. Hope you will all understand what I was trying to explain. I'll just try my best to speak it out accurately. But, anyway, first and the most, I would like to say further on this thread about Witness Lee on the Christian truths and we in local churches who are continually serving and loving the Lord as our first love regardless of oppression, especially the brothers and sisters who are affected in China.

As you know, many critics alike wrongly accused Witness Lee for promulgating the ancient non-Trinitarian heresy called Modalism, claiming to be the true church, and so forth, which many opposers or aka "counter-cult Evangelical Christians" pinned him badly. Because I do believe brother Lee has his own balancing views. Many at his time, do not really understand his English because he was a Chinese man that English was not his primary language, that is why, many people were misunderstood what he was trying to say. Then many of his books that were taken out of context or plucked into a foreign context that he was teaching differently in contrast to the essentials of the historic Christian faith. Nowadays, people are still using those out-dated accusations way back to 70's, 80's and 90's which have already been dealt with. Even also Norman Geisler, Ron Rhodes, Troy Brooks and those people posted in the internet still used those accusations. Pretty sure there are no new arguments at all. For 3 years of researching or examining the actual teachings of brother Lee that accord with the Bible. My conclusion is this, we in the local churches are not denying the essentials of the Christian faith.

Here are some false accusations and misrepresentations

"Concerning the reading materials"

I'm not only reading the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee which I receive much spiritual enlightenment from them, but I also appreciate the writings of other Bible teachers in addition to Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

I do not believe that many criticized us that we are not that general, when some saints who are reading something other than the ministry. We would probably tell them not to or forbid them to read it because they will be not able to continue in the Lord's recovery but to oppose, Only the writings of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee are mandatory or exclusively to read, which that case isn't true. We receive the divine truths from these men because we are nourishy supplied to grow in the divine life. What brother Lee says in the Life-study of 2 Corinthians is actually the clear:

“We accept all ministries that are accomplishing the unique ministry for God's operation. But we cannot accept a ministry that is seeking to establish or accomplish something different from God's unique operation.” (Life-study of 2 Corinthians, 226-227)

Further, I would like to quote from a brother from the comment section of an-open-letter:


"The role of Living Stream Ministry is to make available to the saints meeting in the local churches and to the general public. LSM has neither the intention nor the authority to require the churches to receive its publications or to forbid the saints in the churches from reading the publications of other Christian writers and teachers. The saints receive the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee because, as many have testified, it ministers Christ for the building up of the Body of Christ. Therefore, it is a genuine part of the unique New Testament ministry and is well received by the saints in the churches, but there is no regulation as to what the saints can and cannot read."


"Concerning the claim to be the true church"

Many has said that we in the local churches are exclusivist and elitist to other Christians who are in the denominations. But that is not what we view other Christians.

The universal church is composed of all the believers in Christ. Thus, all genuine Christians, regardless of denominational affiliations or doctrinal persuasions, are members of the one true church of God and are considered members of the local church in the city where they reside, even if they do not meet according to the local church model exemplified in the New Testament. However, the institutions that define themselves according to natural distinctions or personal preferences cannot properly be considered legitimate local expressions of the universal church, which has no such distinctions and is not divided along natural or preferential lines (1 Cor. 1:10-13; Gal. 3:26-28; Col. 3:10-11). As there is one Spirit, one Lord, and one God and Father of all (Eph. 4:4-6), so there is one model ordained by God for the practical expression of the one Body (v. 4). To practice the church life according to that model is to drop our choice and pick up God’s choice (cf. Deut. 12:5, 11) — Tony Espinosa

What we mean is this. That these thousands of gatherings, even hundreds in each city, do indeed consider themselves as, and they are, part of the one Body of Christ. Their shortage is not in regard to a basic seeing that there is only one Body of Christ, one universal Church, but rather in it’s practical carrying out locally.

Many people are appear to expose a bit of a lack of understanding concerning the universal and local aspects of the one Church, when they visit to meetings of a local church when they heard that the Body of Christ has divided because of the divisions or the denominations. They seem to confuse these two by implying the divided state of the universal Church. The Church in it’s universal aspect can not be divided; it is impossible. Despite how many divisions with regard to the local aspect of the church there may be, there is still one undivided universal Church consisting of all believers. All divided, denominated groups of believers are part of the one Body of Christ, the one Church, no matter how they choose to practice. The universal Church does not depend in any way upon any type of practice, rather merely upon all believers sharing the same life of Christ which can never be divided.

Furthermore, despite how many divisions, groups, or denominations there are in a city, all of these believers are part of the one local church. It is impossible for there to be more than one local church in a city, and in fact there is not. The Universal Church is only one and cannot be divided because this is the Lord's building,

[fen]Mat 16:18 RCV
(18) ...I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Far from being an admission, Witness Lee and the local churches have always affirmed that the genuine believers in all of Christianity, including Catholicism, are fellow members of the Body of Christ:

From the very beginning we realized that despite the divisions, organizations, and traditions, there were a great number of genuine Christians scattered in these divisions. We saw that the Lord’s Body comprises all these genuine believers. Even in the Catholic Church we saw a number of genuine believers, and we also considered them as members of the church and as our dear brothers and sisters. On the one hand, we began to meet by ourselves and we fully realized that the dear, genuine believers who were scattered in the Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations were our brothers. We recognized them and we loved them. We realized that the Lord’s Body as the church of God did not only comprise us but also all the genuine believers, of which we were a small part. – Witness Lee, Elders’ Training, Book 4: Other Crucial Matters Concerning the Practice of the Lord’s Recovery (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1985, 1998), pp. 123-124


Many saints when they say that the Body of Christ has been divided into various denominations, sects, and groups. They are implying the practicality of the Body of Christ, not the mystical Body of Christ. Which the Apostle Paul rebuked the Corinthian believers for divisions among them; “Is Christ divided?” Well, maybe they didn't say it specifically. That is why a lot of people today accused us of being exclusist and elitist.

I don't think it excludes other genuine Christians in the denominations. Far from it! Actually, this is merely stating a fact that the Body of Christ at present is INDEED divided into various denominations practically. This is very evident and this is absolutely fleshly,

Gal 5:19-20 RCV
And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are...factions, divisions, sects,

And we should reject all kinds of sects. We should reject the denominations (even though there are genuine Christians in that system!). As long as they are taking another name other than the Lord Jesus, it definitely cannot be Philadelphia.

Rev 3:7-8 RCV
And to the messenger of the church in Philadelphia write: ...you have...not denied My name.
You see, being in the Body of Christ does not mean exclusion. When the Lord died on the cross, He included the Gentiles in this Body.

Eph 2:13-15 RCV
(13) But now in Christ Jesus you who were once far off have become near in the blood of Christ.
(14) For He Himself is our peace, He who has made both one and has broken down the middle wall of partition, the enmity,
(15) Abolishing in His flesh the law of the commandments in ordinances, that He might create the two in Himself into one new man, so making peace,
So what is the result of Christ's ultimate sacrifice on the cross? All of us become fellow heirs of the gospel.

We can read,

Eph 3:6 RCV
(6) That in Christ Jesus the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the Body and fellow partakers of the promise through the gospel,

To be continued......

Does this include only the Christians in the Lord's recovery? Far from it! Why? Because if a person is not a Jew, then he is a Gentile. And being part of the Body of Christ is extended to the Gentiles. Wonderful!

As we clear on this matter. We can conclude that the mystical Body of Christ or the universal church includes all genuine believers in all cities or places regardless of both time and space. What is true to the universal church is also true in a local church which encompasses all the believers in that city, regardless how believers scattered among themselves in various denominations and sects. Yes, the universal church cannot be divided. Then this universal Church is expressed in many local churches. However, in practicality, the local church consists of those believers who stand together on the proper ground as the manifestation of the one unique Body of Christ in time and space. Thus, the practicality of the Body of Christ on earth is the aggregate of all the local churches.

This is not to say that all of us in the local churches are as clear about this matter as Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were. We humbly admit that sometimes we have fallen far short of this proper understanding and practice, and that, like every group of believers, we have our fair share of zealots and immature ones who go beyond what a proper understanding allows. We can never say that we do not make mistakes in our application of this and any other biblical truth, and like all believers everywhere, we too ask for forgiveness for our offenses even as we also must forgive others their offenses. But all our excesses—and we own them all as our own even if they were done by zealots or immature ones among us—cannot diminish our conviction that all the believers should be one, not just in the spiritual and invisible bond of the Holy Spirit but in the practical and visible way (John 17:21 (that the world may believe) of meeting simply as Christians in the cities and towns where they live.

(A Statement concerning
the Teachings of the Local Churches and Living Stream Ministry
in Response to Dialogue with Fuller Theological Seminary)


"Concerning the Triune God"

Those saints who have left the Lord's recovery (I find that most who leave the church do not do so for doctrinal reasons, but for personal reasons, ego, personal ministry, disagreements, sin, etc., but subsequently defend their leaving for doctrinal reasons, justifying their own actions that way by demonizing the church!). For an example on the Triune God. We are obliged to say Amen to all that is written in the Bible, regardless of our capacity to understand the truth. But, nevertheless, the Triune God is not for understanding and not for theological debate but for our experience and enjoyment But since they are unable to see the trees in the forest because they are looking the small.parts.of it. They labeled us modalist. And I agree that God is unknowable in a full way in regards to the mysterious Trinity because reading the scriptural passages and Bro. Lee's books on the Triune God might ambiguously revealed to me. Reasonably, because instances like Isaiah 9:6, John 10:30, 14:9-11, Romans 8:9, 1 Cor. 3:17 and 1 Cor. 15:45 might appear to be modalistic as the One Pentecostal theology view it. But if we are not fairly understand what the plain context or the verse plainly mean to reveal the identification of Jesus with the Father and with the Son in their co-inherence of the three as well as their eternal distinctions but never separate. Furthermore, Modalism is not just merely on the stages of manifestation of one God from time to time but also evangelical Christians said that it is called modalism when claiming that Jesus is the Father, and the Spirit without their distinctions.

Bro. Lee's messages on the Triune God might sometimes pop up in the mind when uses an examples or illustrations when he often speaks in describing which he is not really intent affirm of it's illustrations because I do believe that he's stance against the ancient heresy called modalism and for the eternal distinctions and co-existence of the three in the Godhead. Moreover, essentially God is immutable in essence from eternity to eternity. Bro. Ron said that "the three of Godhead- are distinct in economy (activity) and in essence (being). What a mysterious God! But this does not mean that He is fully unknowable. The brother said that "it is our Christian duty to resist the shallowness of thought that we so easily fall back into the truth concerning the Trinity as the Bible and the God-given resources allow us to do." Yet I thank the DCP brothers, the church fathers, www.triunegod.org, several books by Bro. Lee on the Triune God and especially the Christian Journal - Affirmation Critique has indeed cleared up to me.


I would copy a message from my inbox:

[fen]I send an email to Jim A. Fowler, director of Christ in you Ministries, about Witness Lee on the subject of the Triune God because his book called 'The Triune God in Christian Thought and Experience' on chapters 2 and 3, oikonomia and Koinonia are a standing shoulder-to-shoulder to local churches on the Triune God. What I send was a very long message. So, at the end, I ask "Is their teaching on the Trinity biblical and within the realm of Orthodoxy?"

Hello Kevin,

Upon my return from an extended trip to Europe, I
found your email and inquiry.

Yes, I have found those in the Living Stream Ministry
to have stated very clearly the reality of the "pneumatic
Christ" based on I Corinthians 15:45. What they have
written coincides with scripture and resonates in my own
heart. It is theologically orthodox and a much needed
emphasis on the experiential in the contemporary teaching
of the church at large.

Your brother in Christ,

Jim Fowler
Director, Christ in You Ministries




Read The Triune God in Christian Thought and Experience - http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/TriuneGodEbook.pdf

Sine this is very long post. I will stop here for a while.

Originally posted by Kevin Lee Poracan
As we clear on this matter. We can conclude that the mystical Body of Christ or the universal church includes all genuine believers in all cities or places regardless of both time and space. What is true to the universal church is also true in a local church which encompasses all the believers in that city, regardless how believers scattered among ...[text shortened]... tinyou.net/pdfs/TriuneGodEbook.pdf

Sine this is very long post. I will stop here for a while.

How much did sonship pay you to join RHP yesterday just to post in support of his cult doctrine ?

Nope! And we have no connections at all.....Cult doctrine? really? unberean mind!

Our Practice and Attitude Toward Other Christians in Christianity

(These are all excerpts)

•The Brethren were raised up over the past one hundred years. We are not the Brethren. We are neither the exclusive Brethren nor the open Brethren. (Lesson for New Believers, chapter 18)

•We receive all believers, regardless of their views. As long as they are saved, we are willing to receive them. However, we cannot accept any believer who meets the conditions for removal from fellowship.

•What is your attitude toward other Christians?

We would like to make it emphatically clear that we neither believe nor teach that one must be in a local church in order to be a genuine Christian. We recognize that in the Roman Catholic Church, in the denominations, and in the independent groups there are many genuine blood-washed, Spirit-regenerated believers in Christ, and we receive them as our brothers and sisters in the Lord. All who have saving faith in the Lord Jesus are welcome to all our meetings, especially the Lord’s table, where we testify of the oneness of the Body of Christ. Although we must, for conscience’ sake, stand apart from organized religion, we do not stand apart from our brothers and sisters in Christ. In faithfulness to the Lord, we stand on the unique ground of the church for the sake of the Lord’s testimony. But we do not take this stand with a narrow, exclusive, or sectarian spirit. On the contrary, we take our stand on behalf of the whole Body; we receive all believers even as the Lord has received us. (Beliefs and Practices of the local churches)

•We are willing to fellowship with all the brothers and sisters in the Lord, regardless of the sects they are in, even if they are in the Roman Catholic Church. We are willing to have fellowship with them, but we absolutely do not want to have a part in the denominations to which they belong. Brothers and sisters as individuals are one thing, but the denominations and sects that they are in are another. We must differentiate between the two. Sometimes when we forsake the denominations and sects, we forsake the brothers and sisters who are in them. At other times we do just the opposite. As we receive the brothers and sisters from the denominations, the denominations to which they belong are also brought with them. This is because we have not differentiated between individuals and organizations. (Lessons for New Believers, chapter 18)

•The church includes all those who share the common faith that saves us, the one faith spoken of in Ephesians 4:5. This faith is held in common by all who are saved (2 Pet. 1:1). This faith causes the believers to be one and does not divide them. Any creed or system of teaching that goes beyond the common faith divides the believers. Crucial Truths in the Holy Scriptures, Vol. 6

•“we believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, who was incarnated as a man, died on the cross for our sins, and resurrected from the dead, we are all redeemed, justified, regenerated and saved. And we all have the divine life within us. Therefore, we are all of one Body.”Witness Lee, The Practical Expression of the Church (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1970), 98.

•We believe that there are millions of genuinely saved ones outside the local churches. We believe that in all manner of Christian groups, in the various sects and denominations, there is a large number of genuine blood-washed, Spirit-regenerated believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. All these saved ones are our brothers and sisters in Christ, and we would receive them as the Lord has received us. (The Truth Concerning Exclusivism)

•We need to see what a local church is. First, a local church is all the genuine believers in a locality....Many believers are not meeting on the proper ground of locality, but they are all still members of the local churches. We should not become a sect by considering that we are special and that those who are not meeting with us are inferior. All the believers are our dear brothers and sisters. We should never use the term local church with capital letters to separate ourselves from other believers. Whenever believers gather simply as believers, that is a gathering of the local church in that city. There is no organizational requirement for a group to be part of a local church. (The Importance of Living Christ by Walking According to the Spirit, Witness Lee)

•In recent years people have often questioned us, asking, “Why do you say that only you are the church, but others are not?” We tell them, “No Christians would be so foolish as to say that only they are the church, but others are not. It is foolish for anyone to say this, and it is naive and simple for anyone to believe this kind of saying. We acknowledge that those in various sects and denominations, even those in the Roman Catholic Church, are in the church as long as they are saved. We have never said that only we are the church. However, we would say this: Our feeling is that we are standing on the ground of the church. This we have said; we have not only said this, but we have strongly emphasized this.” ( The Testimony and the Ground of the Church, Witness Lee)

•From the very beginning we realized that despite the divisions, organizations, and traditions, there were a great number of genuine Christians scattered in these divisions. We saw that the Lord’s Body comprises all these genuine believers. Even in the Catholic Church we saw a number of genuine believers, and we also considered them as members of the church and as our dear brothers and sisters. On the one hand, we began to meet by ourselves and we fully realized that the dear, genuine believers who were scattered in the Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations were our brothers. We recognized them and we loved them. We realized that the Lord’s Body as the church of God did not only comprise us but also all the genuine believers, of which we were a small part. Witness Lee, Elders’ Training, Book 4: Other Crucial Matters Concerning the Practice of the Lord’s Recovery (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry,1985), pp. 123-124.

•This unique oneness should be the ground on which we are being built. We should not be sectarian; we should not be exclusive. We must be all-inclusive, open and loving to all the dear saints. As long as they are Christians, they are our brothers. Our brothers have been scattered to many denominations. In spite of this, we still love them. We should not have an attitude or spirit of fighting, opposing, or debating. That is wrong. We should always hold a spirit and an attitude of loving all Christians. As long as they bear the name Christian and believe in the Lord Jesus, they are our brothers and sisters. In the local churches we do not have any wall. We have no fence. We consider all the dear Christians as our brothers.

When we say that this is wrong and that we all must be one, others say that we are narrow and exclusive. But in all these years, it has been proved who is narrow and exclusive. The church in the locality is not narrow. It includes all the believers in that locality. The only thing in which you may say that the church on the proper ground is narrow is that it will not take anything divisive. We will accept all kinds of Christians as long as they are saved. We will accept those who are sprinkled as well as those who are immersed. Would those who say that we are narrow receive such?
What does it mean to be narrow and exclusive? Most people simply do not know what they mean when they speak thus. To be narrow means to disregard the proper ground of unity. If we are on the proper ground, we can never be narrow, for the ground of unity is common to all the people of the Lord. (The Practical Expression of the Church, pp. 84-85)

•Some say that we in the Lord's recovery are narrow. However, we are willing to receive all kinds of Christians. We receive those who practice immersion and those who practice sprinkling. Who then are the narrow ones-those in the Lord's recovery or those who accept into their fellowship only those who meet special requirements related to doctrine or practice?...

The Lord can testify on our behalf that in our practice of the church life we have been general, receiving all different kinds of believers. For instance, we do not stop the saints from speaking in tongues, but neither do we insist on tongues-speaking. Nevertheless, we have been accused of narrowness. Actually it is those in the denominations who are narrow, for they do not receive all different kinds of Christians.... (Life-study of Romans, pp. 620-621)

•Today there are many different backgrounds of the saints…. But regardless of the background, if they are saved, they all have the same faith, for they all believe in the same Lord Jesus Christ. They all have been redeemed by the same blood; therefore, they all have the same life within. We all are one in this all-comprehensive faith.
Fellowship is based upon this oneness. We have fellowship with one another because we all have the same divine life, we all have the same Lord, and we all have the same redemption.( The Practical Expression of the Church)

To be continued.....

•Some brothers have said that only the saints meeting with us are the local church. This kind of speaking is too much. We should say only that the believers meeting with us are a part of the local church. Although according to the ground, principle, and nature there is no question that we are the local church, according to quantity we are only a part of the local church. For example, the local church in Taipei, in principle, includes all the believers in Taipei; however, because of the division of the church, many believers are segregated in denominations. They have departed from the ground of the local church and left us, the minority, to stand on the ground of the local church. Hence, in reality we are only part of the local church in Taipei. If all the believers would return to the local ground, the church in Taipei would include all the believers in the local church. ( Lessons for New Believers, chapter 18)

• Today there are saved ones in every sect and denomination, including the Catholic Church. We acknowledge that they are our brothers and sisters and are members of the Body of Christ, yet they have lost the ground of the church and no longer stand on the ground of the church. They can be compared to family members who have left home and have gone to other places. ( Lessons for New Believers, chapter 18)

• God receives people according to His Son. As long as a person receives His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, as his personal Savior, regardless of the concepts he holds regarding all other things, God receives him immediately. Since God receives people in this way, we too must receive people in the same way.
God’s receiving is based upon Christ’s receiving, and Christ’s receiving is in accordance with our faith in Him. Who-ever believes in Him, He will receive. Whoever receives Him, He will never reject. He said, “Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out” (John 6:37). Since coming to Him, believing in Him, receiving Him, is the only condition for Christ’s receiving, so we must receive people upon the same basis with nothing added. As long as anyone believes in Christ our Lord, as long as he receives Him as his personal Savior, we must receive him with nothing else required. (The Practical Expression of the Church pages 66 and 67)

• We may be quite different from other Christians in background and in many other things. They may not believe in the partial rapture, and we may be for it. But regardless in which kind of rapture we believe, as long as we believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God who was incarnated as a man, died on the cross for our sins, and resurrected from the dead, we are all redeemed, justified, regenerated, and saved. And we all have the divine life within us. Therefore, we are all of one Body. It is based upon this that we have
fellowship with one another. . (The Practical Expression of the Church)

• We should receive people according to God's receiving, not being more narrow than God, thereby demonstrating and maintaining the oneness of the Body of Christ. Furthermore, we should receive people according to the Son of God, according to God, not according to doctrine or practice, thus maintaining a condition of absolute peace, smoothness, and order, without any deviation and discord, in the fellowship of the Body of Christ to the glory of God (Rom. 14:3; 15:7)... (The Experience of God's Organic Salvation Equaling Reigning in Christ's Life, p. 68)

Our Testimony

As we have stated in the past and shall continue to testify in the future, we do not agree with denominations. According to the Scriptures, denominations are divisions in the Body of Christ. However, this need not keep us from having fellowship with our brothers and sisters in the denominations. In the book cited above (p.104) Witness Lee says:

• Regardless of whether others are in the divisions or not, we must recognize that they are our brothers. This does not mean that we go along with their divisions. No, we cannot do this, but we must love all the saints… They all have the same divine life as we… In redemption and in life we are all the same.

We do not believe that one must be in a local church in order to be eternally saved. It is our testimony before God, before man, and before all the principalities and powers that we recognize all genuinely saved ones as our brothers and sisters in Christ and that our hearts are open to them. Our testimony, then, is expressed in the words of the Apostle Paul: “Therefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God” (Rom. 15:7). (The Truth Concerning Exclusivism)

• More than thirty-five years ago in Shanghai, a brother with a Bible in his hand was taking the street car to go to a meeting. Another believer on the street was distributing tracts to the passengers, and when he saw the brother with his Bible he said, “Oh, you must be a brother!” The brother answered that he was indeed a brother. Then he asked him, “To what church do you belong?” The brother answered: “I belong to the same church to which you belong, the same church to which the apostle Paul, the apostle Peter, the apostle John, and Martin Luther belonged, and the same church to which all believers belong.” When he heard that, he said, “That would be wonderful!” ( The Ground of the Church)

Originally posted by Kevin Lee Poracan
To be continued.....

•Some brothers have said that only the saints meeting with us are the local church. This kind of speaking is too much. We should say only that the believers meeting with us are a part of the local church. Although according to the ground, principle, and nature there is no question that we are the local church, according to q ...[text shortened]... ers belong.” When he heard that, he said, “That would be wonderful!” ( The Ground of the Church)

Good Lord ! Help us.. Not another Jaywill/Sonship.

??? geez!!!
Lord what are they talking about?

Originally posted by Kevin Lee Poracan
??? geez!!!
Lord what are they talking about?

Explain to us, if you will, how you stumbled across this particular thread on this particular forum. This is after all a chess playing website where nearly all people who frequent this forum play, yet you have quite clearly not come to play chess. How does someone who has no interest in playing chess end up on a chess website talking about Witness Lee?

Well, anyway, I like to play chess, but not an online. But since there is forum on spirituality and especially Sonship did posted about Witness Lee. So, I just jumped in.....Any problem with that?

Originally posted by Kevin Lee Poracan
Well, anyway, I like to play chess, but not an online. But since there is forum on spirituality and especially Sonship did posted about Witness Lee. So, I just jumped in.....Any problem with that?

Most of what you say is contradictory.

If for example you claim that you accept all Christians, and you dont believe in breaking up the Christian church, why is there a need to start another church separate and apart from the rest of the same Christians you claim you want to fellowship with?

Originally posted by Kevin Lee Poracan
Well, anyway, I like to play chess, but not an online. But since there is forum on spirituality and especially Sonship did posted about Witness Lee. So, I just jumped in.....Any problem with that?

Even with 2 simple sentences you are contradicting yourself and not answering PKs questions.

The question was how did you arrive here.
You like to play chess but not online.
Yet you are online on an online chess site.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Do you recall Watchman Nee saying the following?

[b]"THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father."

Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, p. 18-19.

"The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate Persons or thr ...[text shortened]... the Triune God, became flesh."

Witness Lee, God's New Testament Economy, 1986, p. 230.[/b]

RJHinds, you want some proofs? Ok then!

"The Son is the Spirit"

The Normal Christian Faith published by Hong Kong Church Book Room (1977), a statement can be read as follows,

A passage we read earlier says that we no longer know Christ after the flesh. Now if what we believe in is merely an outward religion then we will need a Holy Land, a Mecca, or a Rome to be our center, for us to go for worship and service. But what we believe in is a Christ inside of us. We know that He is both the God in heaven, as well as the Lord in us.
Not only is He the very Creator, He was also the Christ that put on the flesh. And now He is in us as the Holy Spirit. The Christ in the flesh is over! Now the Christ in the Spirit lives forever in us. (Nee, Watchman, “The Normal Christian Faith,” (Hong Kong: Hong Kong Church Book Room, 1977), 213.)

Brother Lee then says this:

Today under the influence of the creeds, the speaking in Christianity concerning the Divine Trinity either leans toward tritheism or is very close to tritheism. There is a brother who worked with Brother Nee and me for over twenty years when we were in mainland China. In 1934 when the publication of The Christian was resumed and I was charged by Brother Nee to bear the editing responsibility, this co-worker also contributed articles to the magazine. However, in 1958 he condemned me, saying that I teach heresy when I say that “the Son is called the Father and that the Son is the Spirit.” One of our senior co-workers went to have a talk with him, telling him that if this were a heresy, then it did not start with me but with Brother Nee, who had written a hymn with these lines: “Thou, Lord, the Father once wast called, / But now the Holy Spirit art” (Hymns, #490, stanza 5). That brother’s reply was that Brother Nee could also be wrong. I felt then that that brother was not only short in his knowledge of the Bible but also inconsistent in his words and actions. (REVELATION AND VISION OF GOD, chapter 4, Concerning the Divine Trinity)

Hymn #490, stanza 5

AUTHOR: Watchman Nee
COMPOSER: John B. Dykes

1 Lord, when the Father ne’er was known,
The Father came through Thee below,
That we who lived in ignorance
Might through Thyself the Father know.
2 But, Lord, when Thou wast here on earth,
How scarce were those Thyself who knew;
A veil there was ‘twixt Thee and them;
They crowded ‘round, but saw not through.
3 Now as the Spirit Thou hast come
E:’en as the Father came in Thee;
As we through Thee the Father know,
Now through the Spirit we know Thee.
4 Not with the flesh Thou now art clothed-
Then must Thou walk with toil around;
But as the Spirit in our heart
Thou dost supply Thyself unbound.
5 Thou, Lord, the Father once wast called,
But now.the Holy Spirit art;
The Spirit is Thine other form,
Thyself to dwell within our heart.
6 By knowing Thee as Spirit, Lord,
We realize Thy life’s outflow,
Thy glory and Thy character,
And all Thy being’s wonders know.
7 Praise to Thy Name now floods our heart;
There is no one as dear as Thee;
For since we know how real Thou art,
No other one could lovelier be.



Stanza 4 of Hymns, #490 says, "Thou, Lord, the Father once wast called, / But now the Holy Spirit art." This hymn was written by Brother Watchman Nee based on Isaiah 9:6 and 2 Corinthians 3:17. He had clear light concerning Christ being the Spirit. We need to know that the Lord is the Holy Spirit (Acts 16:6-7). Our knowledge of Christ as the Spirit is very much related to our experience of Christ.
The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, 1968, vol. 1, Turning the Age and Living in the Spirit, chapter 7 (LSM)


We do not teach in a light way that Christ is the Son, the Father, and also the Spirit. We have spent many years studying this matter in the Bible and in our experience. The New Testament tells us that the Father is in us (Eph. 4:6), the Son is in us (2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), and the Spirit is in us (John 14:17). According to our experience, do we have three or one in us? In John 14:23 Jesus said, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." Here the Lord said that "We," the Father and the Son, will abide in the disciples. However, it is not accurate to say that two or three dwell in us, because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are one.

Shortly before Brother Nee was imprisoned, he wrote a hymn that says,

Thou, Lord, the Father once wast called,

But now the Holy Spirit art;

The Spirit is Thine other form,

Thyself to dwell within our heart. (Hymns, #490)
Enjoying Christ as the All-Inclusive Spirit for the Practical, Genuine, and Real Church Life, chapter 4 (LSM)



Prior to his imprisonment, Brother Nee published a large hymnal containing a thousand and fifty-six songs. Some of the best hymns in our hymnal were taken from that source. One of the hymns in our hymnal, number 490, was written by Brother Nee and translated by us for inclusion in our hymnal. The fifth stanza says,

Thou, Lord, the Father once wast called,

But now the Holy Spirit art;

The Spirit is Thine other form,

Thyself to dwell within our heart.

The original Chinese, which is much clearer than the English, says "Once You were the Father; now You are the Spirit." Now you know from where I derived the truth that Christ is the Spirit. This truth has been practiced, testified, and fully proved by my own experience. I say once again that we don't care for doctrine; we care for experience.
Life-study of Hebrews, chapter 16 (LSM)



Over fifty years ago, Brother Watchman Nee often told us that the Lord Jesus was the Son, but in eternity past He was the Father, and after resurrection He was the Spirit. Hymns, #490 was written by him. Verse 5 says:

...

The above verse is written from the economical point of view. A form is a mode. If you do not know that in God's divine economy there is the essential Trinity and there is the economical Trinity, and if you do not know the difference and the distinction between them, you will think that Brother Nee was teaching the heresy of modalism. Essentially speaking, the Triune God is one. But economically speaking, there is the distinction of three. I will not say that there are three modes, for I do not want to be mistaken for a modalist. This is why I use the expression, "distinction of three." In the Lord Jesus' conception, birth, human living, death on the cross, and resurrection, the Triune God was in Him passing through all these processes together with Him. The Father was in Him; the Son was in Him; and the Spirit was in Him. The whole Triune God was in Him. Essentially speaking, the Father and the Spirit never departed from Him. But in the aspect of God's economy, after the Lord Jesus' baptism, the Holy Spirit was upon Him as His power for three and a half years. Then at the time when He was put on the cross, God forsook Him. This is not according to His essence but is according to His economy. Over twenty years ago, I wrote a book in English entitled The Economy of God. In this book there is a passage that reads, "Thus, the three Persons of the Trinity become the three successive steps in the process of God's economy" (p. 10). Here I said "three successive steps in the process of God's economy." In the book The God-Men, my opposers changed the word "economy" to "existence," making it read that there are three successive steps in God's existence. This is far off from what I wrote. What I said was that the Triune God has three successive steps in His economy. But the opposers changed my words to read that the Triune God has three successive steps in His existence. This is a great misrepresentation! In God's existence there are not three successive steps because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are coexistent from eternity. Although there are three, yet They are one God. This is the essential Trinity. But in God's economy, the Triune God has three successive steps. First, the Father planned. Next, the Son came to accomplish what the Father has planned. Last, the Spirit executes what the Father has planned and what the Son has accomplished. This is the economical Trinity. The Triune God, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, have a distinction in Their existence and economy. Anyone who fails to realize this distinction will drift into heresy. I hope that you can clearly understand this difference so that you will not be deceived by the seemingly right but actually wrong teachings.
Christ Revealed in the New Testament, chapter 2 (LSM)

I was looking for about Witness Lee's recognition stated by a representative on a google search. So, then, I finally came here.....sorry I did not really say it correctly......I'm a Filipino, that's why

Originally posted by Kevin Lee Poracan
I was looking for about Witness Lee's recognition stated by a representative on a google search. So, then, I finally came here.....sorry I did not really say it correctly......I'm a Filipino

Do you believe Jesus, the Son of God, is the very same Person as the Father?