Originally posted by sonship
Some may ask why a servant of God would be both spoken against so strongly from people like RJHinds and yet also honored by others.

Others might wonder how the hell anyone takes RJHinds seriously anymore, or mention his opinion, as if it were worth bothering to mention. 😛

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Others might wonder how the hell anyone takes RJHinds seriously anymore, or mention his opinion, as if it were worth bothering to mention. 😛

Good point. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
Good point. 😏

For what it is worth I do still take you seriously. But I cannot over try to convince you of some things I think you should realize.

I am glad that the discussion has facilitated the bringing out of many important facts from Defense and Confirmation website designed by the co-workers of Witness Lee.

Originally posted by RJHinds

You can save time by simply going here to see what the local churches teach about the typical historic heresies about the Father-Son-Holy Spirit God:

Traditional Heresies Concerning the Triune God

Against Modalism, Adoptionism, Arianism, and Tritheism

http://www.triunegod.org/heresies/index.html

A ten year member of Lee's Local Church said the following:

First of all let's stop right here.

The local churches do not belong to Witness Lee.
We never capitalized the words as "Local Church" except when the title of a booklet in typical English prose would expect capitalization.

The other case would be when a legal matter called for the incorporation of an legal entity. The court would not recognize anything but a incorporated legal instrument. Thus a capital L "Local Church" legal vehicle had to be made for litigation.

You can use the search engine and search ALL of the thousands upon thousands of pages of messages given by both Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. And I wager that you will not find either speaking of "his" "Local Church".

This of course would not be true of the opposing critics who would delight to portray the local churches as "Witness Lee's Local Church."

I do not succumb to fog or dust thrown in the air obscuring the actual facts and history of what has occured in the local churches.

Now to your quote:

"The doctrinal matters are harder to pin on them, because Lee has said just about everything and its opposite.

Excuse me. But a preacher who is voluminous in his messages and prolific in his service would say many things over the course of many years.

Jesus said many things and other things which appeared to be opposite at times.

Jesus said He did not come to judge in one place.
And He said for judgment He came in another place.

Jesus said those who are not against Him are with Him in one place.
And He said those not with Him are against Him in another place.

Jesus said He came to give peace in one place.
In another place He came to bring a sword, a spiritual sword.

Jesus said we have to eat His flesh and drink His blood or we have no life in us.
In another place He said the flesh profits nothing,

A prolific speaker who faces many different and varied kinds of situations may appear to say opposite kinds of things to the systematizer.

How about the Apostle Paul?

Here are some statements which seem contradictory:

"Bear one another's burden, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely." (Galatians 6:2)

"For each one shall bear his own load." (Gal. 6:5)

Doesn't that sound like Paul saying both contradictory things?

The Apostle John seems to say contradictory things too.

" Everyone who abides in Him does not sin ... " (1 John 3:6)

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:10)

Paradoxical statements like these can be usually reconciled of one is not hunting for reasons to stumble. It does not alarm me that you can take a prolific speaker who over the course of many years spoke from many different angles concerning many different situations, and point out seemingly contradictory statements.

The mother tells her child at one year old to eat with his fingers.
The same mother tells the five year old "Eat with your fork!"

Situation and circumstances explain paradoxical statements very often.

I even remember him bragging in trainings about being able to contradict himself and get away with it. The example I recall is him advocating tritheism in one long message, and in the next, modalism. He said both were biblical. He seemed to revel in the nonsense of it all."

I would ask the speaker of this paragraph for SPECIFICS. When you get into reports like this I would not comment before seeing the INSTANCE that this man is speaking about.

This alleged "bragging" I want to observe for myself. Maybe that was this fellows perception.

Now you have started a thread on Signs of the Last Days or some such subject matter. Do you think that as the last days of the church approach us that all teachers who are faithful to God will only have just GOOD things said about them all the time by other Christians ?

You are naive if you think that there is going to be some grand revival in which NO Christians will give bad reports about OTHER Christian workers.

Shall I show you what someone said about Ken Ham or Kent Hovind or Robert Morris or Duane Gish or any number of your other Young Earth Creationists ministers ?

Oh that's different. Right ?

By the way. Witness Lee was human. Only Jesus is perfect.
I am not saying we had a perfect servant of God among us.
But we had a very good one.

And the PLACE to really find out what he taught about the Trinity is in the books dedicated to a well thought out scheme of presentation. Start by looking through the chapter or paragraph headings to get a general overview of the varied aspects of the matter that are going to be covered.

IE. Witness Lee's Concerning the Person of Christ:

The chapter headings read as follows:

"Godhead" Defined

THE DIFFERENT SCHOOLS THROUGHOUT THE AGES

1.) Christ Having Only Divinity But Not Humanity

2.) Christ Having Only Humanity and Not Divinity

3.) Christ's Divinity Being Incomplete

4.) Christ's Humanity Being Incomplete

5.) Christ's Divinity and Humanity Being Separated

6.) Christ's Divinity and Humanity Being Merged into One

7.) Christ Having Both Divinity and Humanity—Each Being Complete Yet Both Being United in the Body of One Person

This is a well planned and systematic review of the Person of Christ.
And the last section states Witness Lee's concise adherence to what he said was the orthodox position of Church history. Here was his conclusion.

7. Christ Having Both Divinity and Humanity—Each Being Complete Yet Both Being United in the Body of One Person

This is the proper teaching of the orthodox school. After the aforementioned four general councils, the fifth general council was assembled in Constantinople in A.D. 553 where all those of the orthodox school acknowledged that Christ has both divinity and humanity, each being complete but united in the body of one person—without separation, without confusion, and without being changed into a new nature. Our Lord is definitely the Son of God and the Son of Man as well. He is the perfect God and a complete man as well. He is truly God and truly man, and He is both God and man. He has perfect divinity as well as complete humanity. The two natures in Him are neither confused nor separated. Although He has two natures, still He is one person. His Person cannot be divided, and His natures may not be confused. This is the proper revelation as shown in the entire Holy Word of God; this is also the orthodox view of the church of God through the ages. Our Lord who is both God and man, one person with two natures, without separation and without confusion is truly a mystery of mysteries and is worthy to receive our worship and praise forever!

I am more impressed with the six year study of objective outside researchers like Elliot Miller and Hank Hannagraf of CRI.

Everybody knows that ANYONE can leave a group of Christians and thereafter badmouth the pastor or the preacher or anyone he or she wants to criticize about their not meeting with those people any more. Your former member is not that impressive.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Testimoniesoftruth.htm

I believe this ten year member and student of Witness Lee says it well. You can believe what you will and I will believe as I will and so there is no need for us to continue, since as you said, we are just talking past each other.

You can believe that he said it well because you have not read one book yet and really released yourself from a lazy accusatory attitude.

If you spent some time to on quality research the Witness Lee's messages on the Trinity as you do studying how to convince everybody that dinosaurs were on the ark, you'd get a more accurate picture.

"We Were Wrong" says the former vehement Christian Research Institute Cult Fighters of the 70s.

One day you may see that as the Chinese were observing RJHinds criticize the followers of Witness Lee as a CULT they were throwing Chinese Christians into prison, influenced by your words that you have written here.

I wonder what you will say to the Lord Jesus if He shows you that because of your accusing one of His servants as being a cult leader, His children in Mainland China were being persecuted and imprisoned because of repressive "America Watching" government officials.

I think you need to pray about your attitude a bit.

Originally posted by sonship
You can save time by simply going here to see what the local churches teach about the typical historic heresies about the Father-Son-Holy Spirit God:

[b]Traditional Heresies Concerning the Triune God

Against Modalism, Adoptionism, Arianism, and Tritheism

http://www.triunegod.org/heresies/index.html

[quote] A ten year membe ...[text shortened]... merica Watching" government officials.

I think you need to pray about your attitude a bit.[/b]

You fail again. What keeps them from admitting they were wrong again?

Originally posted by RJHinds
You fail again. What keeps them from admitting they were wrong again?

In this country of the US someone says you're in a cult and at most some folks will frown.

In Mainland China where repressive goverment officials watch United States happenings, if they see something in the West is called a cult, the consequences are much harsher.

Gretchen Passantino with her husband Robert were in the late 70s and through early 80s fierce cult fighters and critics of Witness Lee. Mrs. Passantino survived her husband. Gretchen Passantino, after more thorough research, realized that people were thrown into Chinese prisons for decades because some of her written criticisms against the local churches were read by Chinese goverments who do not look kindly on anything they view as a threat to Government control.

Touchingly one of the prisoners she met said that he forgave her. He counted it as suffering for the name of Jesus Christ.

You better be sure of what you are writing in public. You could cause some Chinese Christian mother or father to be ripped away from their home and thrown in prison for involvement in what you wrote was following a cult leader.

You better make sure of what you are writing. Not for any litigation sake, you should be sure. But for the sake of Christian brothers in another Communist country and the fact that we all will give an account of our Christian lives before Christ one day.

In 2009, Watchman Nee’s contribution to the church in China [SIC] and his influence on Christians in the West was recognized in a statement by Congressman Chris Smith on the floor of the United States House of Representatives. At the conclusion of his statement, Mr. Smith related the following: “After Watchman Nee’s death, when his niece came to collect his few possessions, she was given a scrap of paper that a guard had found by his bed. What was written on that scrap may serve as Watchman Nee’s testament: ‘Christ is the Son of God Who died for the redemption of sinners and was resurrected after three days. This is the greatest truth in the universe. I die because of my belief in Christ. Watchman Nee.’”

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/ebooks/Hanegraaff-Passantino-Fuller.pdf/

Christians in the West,

Be sure of what you write when you write for public eyes from around the globe, that someone is involved with a cult leader.

You just might cause a brother or sister in Christ to be imprisoned.

Chinese social media reports of a statement by the Chinese
government Anti-Cult Association that first aired on China Central Television (CCTV). In their statement,
the Anti-Cult Association targets the saints in the
local churches:

The Shouters: Also known as “the Church of God,” and calling themselves the “Local Church” and the “Lord’s Recovery.” This group was founded in the USA in 1962 by an American Chinese named Witness Lee and gradually developed into a cultic organization with its center at “Living Stream Ministry” in the USA, with strongholds in “The Gospel Book Room” in Taiwan and Hong Kong Bible Research and Education Centre in Hong Kong, and auxiliary bases in Southeast Asian countries such as Thailand, Malaysia, and the Philippines. They are spreading to various places in the world with an emphasis on infiltrating Mainland China

Much misinformation and confusion with serious consequences to Christians meeting in a Communist country.

Make sure you are not publishing false information, saints.

Originally posted by sonship
Christians in the West,

Be sure of what you write when you write for public eyes from around the globe, that someone is involved with a cult leader.

You just might cause a brother or sister in Christ to be imprisoned.

[quote] Chinese social media reports of a statement by the Chinese
government Anti-Cult Association that first aired on China Cen ...[text shortened]... meeting in a Communist country.

Make sure you are not publishing false information, saints.

I understand both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are gone now. So the Local Church can simply repent of the heretical teachings by Witness Lee on the Trinity and everything will be fine.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I understand both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are gone now. So the Local Church can simply repent of the heretical teachings by Witness Lee on the Trinity and everything will be fine.

We in the local churches are more and more absolute for what the Lord delivered to us through these servants.

Here's Brother Lee's short word on feasting on the positive things, a section of Life Study of Genesis - the Message is called THE WAY TO BE PERFECTED AS A PILLAR

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

FEASTING ON THE POSITIVE THINGS

According to God's principle in His creation, in order for anything to grow there is the need for a negative side. Take the example of a chicken. We all appreciate chicken eggs, breasts, and legs, but we certainly do not care for chicken dung, feathers, and bones. Nevertheless, without dung, feathers, and bones, a chicken cannot grow. In order for a chicken to be a chicken, it must have these things. But it is not our portion to eat them. We should enjoy the eggs, the breasts, and the legs, and forget the dung, the feathers, and the bones. If we concentrate on the positive aspects of the chicken, we shall receive much nourishment.

I admit that the church in Los Angeles has made certain mistakes, and I confess that I have made mistakes. The elders can testify of this. Everybody makes mistakes. No one can deny this. I have had to make mistakes in order to grow. These mistakes are my "dung." If you eat this, you are foolish. I also admit that I have "feathers." The church in Los Angeles also has had a certain amount of "feathers" and "bones." However, without these "feathers," "bones," and "dung," neither the church in Los Angeles nor my ministry would be able to exist. Do you intend to gather up the "feathers" and say, "Look! This is the church in Los Angeles. Look! This is what Brother Lee has done. See all these awful 'feathers.'" If you do this, you will not damage the church in Los Angeles or my ministry, but you will surely damage yourself. To do this is not wise. These who have been perfected to be pillars, who surely are not less intelligent than you, are wise. Their eyes are much clearer than yours. But they refuse to devote their attention to the negative things. They would say, "Although Brother Lee has some 'dung,' he has a great many eggs. I don't care for the 'dung' issuing out of his ministry—I want to eat all the 'eggs,' 'breasts,' and 'legs.' I have no time to hear about 'feathers' and 'bones.'" Let us follow the example of such brothers to forget the negative things and to feast upon the "eggs," "breasts," and "legs." This is my burden in this message.

Are you in Anaheim as a spy, investigating whether or not Witness Lee has any "dung"? I cannot live without "dung." To be sure, both "feathers" and "bones" can be found here in Anaheim. The elders have made many "bones." But I would stand, even dance, upon all the "bones" they have made; I would not be so foolish as to eat them.

Three or four of us knew Brother Nee very intimately. He fully opened himself to us, and we knew his imperfections. But we realized that these imperfections were the "dung" that enabled him to exist. Unlike others, we would not cling to his "feathers," nor to the "bones" of the "chicken" in Shanghai. If we had done this, we would have sacrificed ourselves. I never suffered such self-inflicted damage. Rather, I enjoyed the fresh, nourishing "eggs," "breasts," and "legs" of Brother Nee's ministry. When a great turmoil was aroused against his ministry, I was not ashamed to say that I was an absolute follower of Brother Nee. I did not care what others said about his mistakes. I only knew how grateful I was to him for the perfection he had rendered to me. I knew the nourishment I had received from him. Even when we are in the New Jerusalem, I shall be able to say that the Lord used Brother Nee to perfect me. Apart from his ministry, I would never be the person I am today.

How foolish it would be for anyone in the church to devote his time to finding "dung" or stuffing his pockets with "feathers," saying, "This is a 'feather' from that 'chicken' Witness Lee, and these are the 'bones' of the church in Anaheim. Don't you know that the church in Anaheim has made mistakes?" If this is your intention, you are wasting your time. You are in the wrong place. Neither Witness Lee nor the church in Anaheim would pay you for exposing them. But do not think that we are afraid of being exposed. Whatever Witness Lee is, he is what he is. Whether the church is genuine or not, the church is what the church is. Neither the church in Anaheim nor my ministry is afraid of exposure. On the contrary, we appreciate it. But what will you gain by exposing us?

Praise the Lord that some of us are not hunting for the "dung" and "feathers" but the nourishing meat of what God has accomplished through such faithful servants.

Originally posted by sonship
We in the local churches are more and more absolute for what the Lord delivered to us through these servants.

Here's Brother Lee's short word on feasting on the positive things, a section of [b]Life Study of Genesis - the Message is called THE WAY TO BE PERFECTED AS A PILLAR

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

[quote] FEASTIN ...[text shortened]... "feathers" but the nourishing meat of what God has accomplished through such faithful servants.

Surely everyone makes mistakes, however, to continue in those mistakes is not something to be praised.

Jesus, the Son of God, is the expressed image of God the Father and we are able to know the Father through the Son is true. However, to teach that Jesus, the Son of God, is God the Father becomes a heresy that must stop.

Also Jesus taught that the Holy Ghost is ANOTHER Comforter and NOT the very same Comforter that He was as He appeared to them then. These three are one, meaning in UNITY of purpose, as GOD. It does NOT mean that these three are one, numerically, as a Person. This is why the Creed says three Persons in one God.

Originally posted by sonship
For what it is worth I do still take you seriously. But I cannot over try to convince you of some things I think you should realize.

I am glad that the discussion has facilitated the bringing out of many important facts from Defense and Confirmation website designed by the co-workers of Witness Lee.

RJ Hinds has published many books under the pen-name "Witless Lee".

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
RJ Hinds has published many books under the pen-name "Witless Lee".

That is funny. But why must you use my name in vain?

Originally posted by RJHinds

Jesus, the Son of God, is the expressed image of God the Father and we are able to know the Father through the Son is true. However, to teach that Jesus, the Son of God, is God the Father becomes a heresy that must stop.

No it should be seen as the Word being God and becoming flesh should be seen.

It should be seen and other passages coming from the same God to be trusted should be seen as well. Those other passages with those showing no separation between Son and Father are there for our experience.

Only those concerned chiefly for an objective theology discounting experience are taking up the banner of opposing Isaiah 9:6. The opposition comes also from people like yourself who place creeds above the Bible.

From the very inception of the ministry of Watchman Nee in China and of the local churches established there, we have consistently taken the stand that the Bible, not the creeds, is the unique standard of the truth. Watchman Nee wrote:

The Bible testifies of itself: "All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16-17). For man to consider the creeds as authoritative is for him to annul the authority of the Bible! It causes man to take the creeds as the standard instead of taking the Bible as the standard!2

If creeds were necessary, God’s wisdom surely would have prepared an infallible one. God’s love would surely not have forgotten such a thing and would not have held it back from the church. The fact that God did not give us such a creed shows that such a creed is useless. On the contrary, God has given man a Bible… The condition for understanding the Bible is not great knowledge, great wisdom, or profound study, but a single-hearted desire to be a man of God. Even the poorest and the most foolish man can do this. As a result, it is possible even for him to understand the Word of God. If believers would be men of God in position and in conduct, it would not be difficult for them to understand the Bible.3

Rhodes and Giesler accuse Witness Lee of teaching Patripassionism - the belief that the Father suffered on the cross.

But a God breathed scripture is Isaiah 9:6 telling mankind plainly that the Son given is the Eternal Father. And another God breathed inspired word tells us of the man Jesus telling His Father "My God, my God why have you forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:46 - Christ quoting Psalm 22:1)

As those who trust God we believe and should encourage others to believe both passages. Christ is Godman. And we refuse to not believe Matthew 27:46 was cried out by Jesus for the sake of adhering to Isaiah 9:6. And we refuse to trample upon Isaiah 9:6 because we embrace "Matthew 27:46.

If this exposes believers to ridicule or opposition because of the zeal of someone to enshrine his creed above the words of Scripture, then we are just willing to suffer that persecution.

We will believe that the Son is the incarnation of the Father. And we will believe that the Son cried out also in agony of bearing our judgment for sin - "My God, my God, why have you forsaken Me?"

Believing all that the Scripture has said leads to the greatest blessing and enjoyment of the God of Scripture.

Also Jesus taught that the Holy Ghost is ANOTHER Comforter and NOT the very same Comforter that He was as He appeared to them then. These three are one, meaning in UNITY of purpose, as GOD. It does NOT mean that these three are one, numerically, as a Person. This is why the Creed says three Persons in one God.

Yes He is "another Comforter" . And yes He is the first Comforter come in another form.

Same as - Yes,"the Word was with God", and yes, "and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

Surely everyone makes mistakes, however, to continue in those mistakes is not something to be praised.

We praise God for the raising up of local churches on the five continents.

Here are listed just some who have benefited from the consecration to the Lord of brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

www.localchurches.org

It is you who are blowing up out of proportion faithful utterances of the Scriptures like [b]Isaiah 9:6, 1 Cor. 15:45, 2 Cor. 3:17 for the sake of keeping objective creedal formulas in a higher place than the words of the Bible.

Originally posted by sonship

Jesus, the Son of God, is the expressed image of God the Father and we are able to know the Father through the Son is true. However, to teach that Jesus, the Son of God, is God the Father becomes a heresy that must stop.

No it should be seen as the Word being God and becoming flesh should be seen.

It should be seen and other passa ...[text shortened]... or the sake of keeping objective creedal formulas in a higher place than the words of the Bible.

You apparently have become so indoctinated by Lee's teachings that you have become like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who get their understanding from the Watchtower. Neither you or the JW's can actually see what the scripture is actually saying because of all the propaganda.

Even the JWs will not acknowledge that those verses mean the Son is the Father or that the Son is the Holy Ghost. However, they believe the Holy Ghost just refers to a force from the Father instead of ANOTHER Person in the unity of the Godhead.

I have never had any luck in getting them to understand their error and it looks like I am wasting my time trying to get you to understand. I believe I have told you everything you need to know, so maybe in time it will sink in. There is no sense beating a dead horse.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Good morning. Get a good night's sleep?
So what do we have today here ?

You apparently have become so indoctinated by Lee's teachings that you have become like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who get their understanding from the Watchtower. Neither you or the JW's can actually see what the scripture is actually saying because of all the propaganda.

What you have to do is point out the error. And I don't think you have done that yet.

As for being "indoctrinated" ? I am quite happy that I am very familiar with what Witness Lee taught. I owe too much of my spiritual life to the ministry of these two brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

Sure the Apostle Paul told his young worker Timothy -

King James Bible
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed. You know those who taught you,

So we remember not only what we received from these servants of God, but also the KIND of testimony of living that they left us - "You know those who taught you."

It is the example of their lives and what they accomplished for God which encourages us to take their ministry seriously. What you meant as an insult I would take as a compliment.

The aged Apostle Paul also told the younger Timothy -

"Hold a pattern of the healthy words that you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. " ( 1 Timothy 1:13)

I found Witness Lee's messages to be healthy words. I found them much healthier spiritually then some of the volumes published by others on bashing US presidents or arguing about the age of the universe.

And notice that Paul reminds Timothy not only of the teaching but also who it was who passed them on - "healthy words which you heard from me." . That is neither pride nor indoctrination per se. That is reminding the younger man of the life testimony of the one who taught.

Witness Lee led an impressive life of total consecration to serve Jesus Christ. It would be glorious if I could be used by God a fraction of that degree.

Furthermore Paul told Timothy to "guard" the good teachings through the Holy Spirit. So I do likewise with the ministry of Brothers Nee and Lee -

"Guard the good deposit through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us." (v.14)

Even the JWs will not acknowledge that those verses mean the Son is the Father or that the Son is the Holy Ghost. However, they believe the Holy Ghost just refers to a force from the Father instead of ANOTHER Person in the unity of the Godhead.

It appears to me that you cannot refute my presentation of John so you have opted to go off and argue with the Jehovah's Witness. The JWs may be an easier target because they do no believe that the Spirit of God is a living Person. And now I use the word in this instance as I have in this Forum before.

I just don't insist that it is the litmus test of orthodoxy.

We are told not to "grieve" the Holy Spirit, which proves that He is a mysterious Person with the capacity to be sorrowful.

Stop trying to piggyback the local churches with the Jehovah's Witness.

I have never had any luck in getting them to understand their error and it looks like I am wasting my time trying to get you to understand. I believe I have told you everything you need to know, so maybe in time it will sink in. There is no sense beating a dead horse.

That is not my problem. Go argue with galveston or robbie about those problems.

Face it RGHinds, you're talking here to sonship about what Witness Lee spoke. Stop daydreaming that you're talking with a Jehovah's Witness.
My God is the Man Jesus Christ.

And "Now the Lord is the Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom." (2 Cor. 3:17)

Now some others beside Witness Lee who see it that way:

The Spirit, however, is the earthly presence of the exalted Lord… Ernst Käsemann, Commentary on Romans (Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans, 1980), p. 241

The Spirit that indwells believers is the selfsame Spirit of the glorified Lord. Carl F. H. Henry, God, Revelation and Authority, VI:2 (Waco, TX: Word Books, 1983), p. 400

After His resurrection, says Paul, Jesus Christ, the Second Adam, "became a life-giving Spirit" (I Cor. 15:45). Whatever weight is given to the verb "became," it is clear that it comes close to identifying the risen Jesus with the divine Spirit. In one perplexing sentence Paul says, "The Lord is the Spirit" (II Cor. 3:17). Had he said, "The Lord sends the Spirit" or "The Spirit is divine," he would have made things simpler. But we have to deal with what he actually says.

We should notice, too, the mixing of Spirit and Christ in Romans 8. In the span of a few sentences Paul has "Spirit in us" and "Christ in us" as well as "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Christ." So, brushing aside all nuances of context and grammar, we can say this much without further examination: Spirit and Christ are inseparable. Lewis B. Smedes, Union with Christ (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1970, 1983), pp. 26-27

Who is "the Lord" in the sentence [2 Cor. 3:17]? Interpreters have sometimes thought Him to be Jehovah of Exodus 34. The point would then be that the Spirit of the new covenant is really the Spirit of Jehovah, showing that there is no contradiction between the Old Testament and the New. But Paul’s whole argument is not to show the identity but the contrast between the covenants. He wants to say that Israel has been brought to a stage in history when they are now confronted specifically with the claims of Jesus, the surprising Messiah.

The Lord is Jesus. This is the core of Paul’s message here and everywhere. The Lord in verse 17 is the concrete individual Jesus who died and rose again and is now Lord of "all things." This identifiable and concrete person is the Spirit. Lewis B. Smedes, Union with Christ (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1970, 1983), pp. 39-40

Paul upholds the deity of the Holy Spirit when he states, "The Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17; cf. v. 18). Although some identify kyrios as the God of the Old Testament, it seems preferable, given the immediate context (v. 14), to hold that the apostle identifies Christ and the Spirit. That being so, "The Lord and the Spirit are ‘one’ in the same sense that Jesus said that He and the Father were one (John 10:30). Bruce Demarest and Gordon Lewis, Integrative Theology, vol. 1 (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1987), p. 266; the last sentence quotes R. V. G. Tasker, 2 Corinthians, Tyndale New Testament Commentaries (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1983), p. 66

Most significant of all, the Spirit for Paul has been constitutively stamped with the character of Christ. Christ by his resurrection entered wholly upon the realm of the Spirit (Rom. 1:4; cf. 8:11). Indeed, Paul can say that Christ by his resurrection "became life-giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). That is to say, the exalted Christ is now experienced in, through, and as Spirit. James D. G. Dunn, The Christ and the Spirit, vol. 2: Pneumatology (Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans, 1998), p. 16; see also pp. 338, 341

Nevertheless, the dynamic identification between Christ and the Spirit includes, most probable, also an ontic or ontological aspect, to use present day theological language and conceptual distinctions, which goes beyond a merely functional identification. In other words, one should not speak merely of the Spirit playing the role of Christ, or of the Spirit only representing Christ. Rather, there is a sense in which the risen Lord himself is actually present and active through the Spirit which is hardly imaginable without there being some ontic or ontological connection between the two. Thus it seems appropriate to speak also of an ontological, though dynamic, identification between the Spirit and Christ in Paul. Mehrdad Fatehi, The Spirit’s Relation to the Risen Lord in Paul: An Examination of Its Christological Implications (Tübingen, Germany: Mohr Siebeck, 2000), p. 305; see also p. 332

Your critics must be mad with Witness Lee for other reasons. He has taken what has been taught by many others and made these truths practical and delivered them to Christians many cities to enjoy building up the church life. A real ministry of God has to give people a WAY to get into the things being spoken.

Because Witness Lee has been used by God to open a practical door into these high truths, some people are apparently jealous. I cannot think of any other reason for their displeasure.

"You --- DIDN'T go through US !" as if they are the door keepers of Christianity in the Western world. This is petty stuff they need to get over.

God can use someone from a "virgin" territory to open up a door into the normal church life and coming kingdom. I think God raised up these two men from Mainland China to bring the hungry saints into the last days.