Works first then 'Abode'

Originally posted by JS357
I was offering a possible explanation of what Suzianne said. She hasn't confirmed this so I won't assume it is what she meant. From the standpoint of Apostolic succession, divisiveness over what the Bible says is due to those not qualified, presenting themselves as authoritative as to its meaning. I am pretty well versed in this view, although I do not persona ...[text shortened]... rches, Methodist churches, and Latter-day Saints. Of course you are free to call it nonsense.

Your quote basically said that people should not read the Bible for themselves but rather should listen to the Catholic priests as they are qualified to interpret and teach.

The only thing you said thats correct is that Im free to call it utter nonsense. And it is utter nonsense. Its the Vaticans way of keeping the masses uninformed and under control.

And this is the reason why I dont waste my time discussing things with atheists like yourself. We have no common ground or basis for any meaningful discussion.

Originally posted by JS357
Maybe the idea is to rely on the spiritual descendants of Christ to understand and transmit the lessons of the Bible, according to our needs. After all, "The Church Precedes the New Testament."

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

Chapter III.

"Our Blessed Lord Himself never, so far as we know, wrote a line of Scri erving and handing down the Word of God as they had received it, to all generations. "

this of course is a rather biased point of view and one which must ignore many parts of the ancient text for
legitimacy. It is clear that Christ himself was well versed in scripture, he quotes from it reliably. Indeed when in
the synagogue he asks for the scroll of Isaiah which was several meters long and finds the exact portion that he
wants to dwell upon, pretty difficult for someone not well versed in scripture. He states that Gods word (the Bible
up until that point) is 'truth', Paul states that he provided references when preaching and commends this method
to the first century Christians, clearly scrolls and parchments played an integral part in first century Christianity
and its spread, to state that its better to rely on an oral tradition is a nonsense, it has no basis in scripture, is
impractical and as far as i can discern there was no prohibition given to the apostles to prevent writing things
down for the sake of posterity.

The Apostle John wrote his gospel in a very deliberate way. And the fulfillment of the promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit is in John 20:21-22.

"Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace be with you. And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced at seeing the Lord.

Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.

And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:19c-22)

Anyone can believe whatever he or she wants to believe. As for me, I count these passages as the Apostle John's deliberate emphasis on Christ in resurrection breathing here the Holy Spirit into the believing disciples. This was the fulfillment of the promises of Jesus in John 14 through 16 of the coming of the Holy Spirit, Another Comforter, the "Spirit of truth" who the disciples were to receive, which the world cannot receive.

And it is no contradiction to the book of Acts when the promise of power was to come to the disciples through the same Holy Spirit.

That's all for this post. And because I left unwritten many things does not mean I am unaware of them. What I have chosen to not elaborate on in this post, are not matters that I am ignorant of. [Robbie, Rajk999]

Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ said :
[quote]John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said un ...[text shortened]... g references from the Bible that this sequence is correct and the one Christ laid out is wrong.

In plain terms: treating others with respect is a prerequisite to spiritual transformation (of which the modalities, as alluded to John's gospel, are not plain, although they are plain to see).

I agree with this: you can't be disrespectful and get the work done.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
this of course is a rather biased point of view and one which must ignore many parts of the ancient text for
legitimacy. It is clear that Christ himself was well versed in scripture, he quotes from it reliably. Indeed when in
the synagogue he asks for the scroll of Isaiah which was several meters long and finds the exact portion that he
wants prohibition given to the apostles to prevent writing things
down for the sake of posterity.

Since raj thinks it a waste of time, I won't reply to him, but this reply does respond to him, as well as to you.

It is not foreign to the idea of scriptural authority, that scripture itself could be where we find guidance on our use and reliance on the selfsame scripture. For example, in the Bible, we can find pronouncements to the effect that the Bible is perfect and complete, and is not to be added to or taken away from, and those who are faithful followers, accept this example of scriptural self-reference and self-limitation.

So it is as legitimate to find within scripture, guidance on -- if I can put it in simple terms -- not just what to read, but who to listen to. This introduces the idea of apostolic succession. Some early scholars looked within scripture and found words that they see as confirming that Jesus did this by establishing the apostolic succession.

You say these people used scripture in their work. They did. There is no contradiction, in Jesus' or these apostles' reading and applying scripture, after all, they were members of the apostolic succession. And there would be no prohibition on later apostles' writing things down; although this would not mean that these writings would be considered to be part of the original scripture -- especially after the scripture itself proclaimed itself to be complete. The prohibition would be against treating as authoritative, the spoken words and writings of people who are outside the apostolic succession.

So written authority is not made subordinate to oral authority. It is apostolic authority, by whatever means, that is established in the apostolic succession.

As raj suggests, this would be a neat and tidy way for an institution interested in power and control, to cement its authority. The institution's reply is that the authority was cemented by the Founder. The question then becomes, how can we be assured that the integrity of the apostolic succession is preserved?

I'm not a theist, but this represents my non-scholarly understanding of the rationale for apostolic authority. I am certainly not "pitching" it here.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ said :
[quote]John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said un g references from the Bible that this sequence is correct and the one Christ laid out is wrong.

Hi, I've been thinking a lot about what you are asking.

***There is a clear sequence here :

1. Know and Keep Christ's commandments [chief of which is to love God and love your neighbour as yourself]. If you succeed in that then ..

2. Christ will see that it is YOU who loves Him [because YOU keep His commandments], and if YOU love Christ then God will love you also and Christ will manifest himself to YOU .. Then

3. Christ will make his abode with YOU.

Finally Christ makes it clear that if you dont love Him, then you wont keep his commandments.***

That was true for the 12 apostles he was speaking too. Christ had not died yet so the apostles could not have the Holy Spirit in them yet. (John 14:16 & John 14:26). I guess your clear sequence 'works' for the apostles. They could not do any true works of the spirit until they were filled with it. I don't consider the 10 commandments works, they are commandments.

For us now or anyone after Christs death I would say that:

***Christians in general however seem to believe the following :

1. Believe in Christ and get Baptised
2. Receive Holy Spirit, Regenerate, Get saved etc, and only then
3. Christ lives with them [makes his abode] and then they do good works, and follow Christ commandments.***

1 John 4:15

We receive Gods Holy Spirit as soon as we confess Jesus. It is automatic and freely given.

I agree good works are important, I strive to do them. I also strive to keep the 10 Commandments. However Gods word tells me that my being saved has nothing to do with me or what I do - Ephesians 2:8-9

***Can any Christian provide some clear supporting references from the Bible that this sequence is correct and the one Christ laid out is wrong.***

Not sure if I did that for you.

I think you are saying here that Christ version is wrong. I would say to you that Christ can not be wrong. Christ had something in him no one else at the time had.

John 14: 9-10

Thanks

Originally posted by boonon
Hi, I've been thinking a lot about what you are asking.

***There is a clear sequence here :

1. Know and Keep Christ's commandments [chief of which is to love God and love your neighbour as yourself]. If you succeed in that then ..

2. Christ will see that it is YOU who loves Him [because YOU keep His commandments], and if YOU love Christ then God wil wrong. Christ had something in him no one else at the time had.

John 14: 9-10

Thanks

Im saying that the words of Christ CANNOT be wrong and that any statement by any LESSER AUTHORITY must be interpreted in the light of what Christ said.

So Christ basically said that if you keep his commandments then he will make his abode with you.

You now quote John [a lesser authority] as saying ..

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Your interpretation of John is wrong. Your interpretation is the lazy man's interpretation. Its the easy way out. Its like 'WOW .. I do nothing and I get Christ to dwell with me and I can do as I please .. ? WOW .. thats neat !! "

Christ said follow his commandments FIRST, THEN I will dwell with you.

But thats your choice. Everyone has their own path to Christ ... or wherever else they are heading.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ said :
[quote]John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said un g references from the Bible that this sequence is correct and the one Christ laid out is wrong.

There is a clear sequence here :

1. Know and Keep Christ's commandments [chief of which is to love God and love your neighbour as yourself]. If you succeed in that then ..

2. Christ will see that it is YOU who loves Him [because YOU keep His commandments], and if YOU love Christ then God will love you also and Christ will manifest himself to YOU .. Then

3. Christ will make his abode with YOU.

It is true that the love of the Lord is definitely a part of the word that the believers are to keep.

There is not need to treat verse 23 as a once for all event. Rather Christ and His Father making an abode in His lovers is certainly deepening and ongoing. There is the initial receiving of Christ which is being born again. But the received Christ spreading and growing thoughout the disciple's whole Christian life His ongoing making His home in their hearts, ie. making an abode with them.

In Ephesians Paul is definitely speaking to Christians. And reminds them that Christ makes His home in their hearts through faith:

"That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph. 3:16)

1.) Christ making His home in man's heart is not once for all but a continuing and ongoing matter because of the "strengthened ... into the inner man" .

The process involves ever strengthening. The bond is to grow stronger and stronger.

Christ has come into the kernel, the "nucleus" of the believer. Paul's prayer is the the believers would be strengthened with power into that realm more and more. That is the living Christ residing in their human spirit would exercuise more and more enfluence over their soul.

They log more and more time living and being strengthened into that realm - " ... strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man"

2.) With ever encreasing strengthening the ongoing action of Christ making His HOME then in the believer's heart continues throughout the normal Christian life.

"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith"

3.) Since it is "through faith" it is a matter of believing that Christ can be more and more everything to the believer - her endurance, her long suffering, her love, her wisdom, her consecration, her very faith.

As we trust that this all-inclusive Person can be more and more within us the ongoing operation of Christ making His home in our hearts continues. It is not once and for all. But His home means more and more He has authority over us.

You arrange your home more and more according to your taste. So Christ, as He more and more makes His home in our hearts, has more say over the arrangement in His home, our hearts.

4.) In Galatians Paul makes it clear that it is FAITH that causes us to receive the Spirit:

"This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of works of the law or out of the hearing of faith ?" (Galatians 3:2)

What caused the Galatians to receive the Holy Spirit was not works out of the law but the hearing of faith.

5.) There is no need to consider this receiving of the Spirit as one time only in Galatians. Paul's labors in ministry for the Galatians is that Christ would be FORMED in them, ie. more and more take shape. This is akin to Paul's utterance in Ephesians that Christ would make His home in our hearts:

"My children with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you." (Gal. 4:19)

"CHRIST IS FORMED IN YOU" - They have received the Holy Spirit initially. Now more and more as the Holy Spirit exerts more enfluence over their soul, they are being conformed to Christ and Christ is being FORMED in them. He is making His home in their hearts through faith.

Christ is being formed in their personality as they are being strengthened into that realm in which Christ lives in them - "the inner man".

6.) They begun in faith and the Spirit. They must continue in faith and the Spirit.

"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh ?" (Gal. 3:3)

Paul does not want them to slip into an attitude of law keeping. Like him the life he lives in the flesh is still by the faith of the Son of God:

" ... but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now livee in the flesh I live in faith, the faith if the Son of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal. 2:20)

Finally Christ makes it clear that if you dont love Him, then you wont keep his commandments.

Christians in general however seem to believe the following :

1. Believe in Christ and get Baptised
2. Receive Holy Spirit, Regenerate, Get saved etc, and only then
3. Christ lives with them [makes his abode] and then they do good works, and follow Christ commandments.

It is true that we cannot live Christ unless we receive Christ.
The extreme that should be avoided is to assume that for Christ to make an abode in the believer means only a one time event.

The Apostle Paul says "As therefore you have RECEIVED the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in HIm." (Col. 2:6)

1.) There is absolutely no shame in saying "I have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord".

There is no problem to saying "On such and such an evening, I received Christ Jesus the Lord into my life". He initially came to make His home in the human heart.

2.) The same way I received Him, Paul says, I should continue to WALK in Him. That is to take each step ... step by step in Him through faith:

"As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him" .

We lovers of Christ began by faith. We believers continue by faith.
We Christians began by the Spirit. We should continue to be perfected not out of works of the law by by walking by the Spirit.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think I will stick with what the Bible states very clearly and concisely rather than your version Epi.

First, here is a commonsense question. In what relationship can someone claim to love or believe and not demonstrate that love/belief via action. Answer : NONE. Not among men and not between God and man. Could God claim to love us without action? NO. G say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.[/i]

If he had failed to prove that love by obedience then his love or belief would have been empty or dead according to James.

Nothing in my post indicated otherwise, Raj.
__________

Love is not an abstract thing.

Before it manifests itself in action, love is definitely abstract.

Allow me to demonstrate. Let's say you're locked up in prison, Raj. You are bound hand and foot and cannot speak or move. I ask you if you love your mother. Of course you do. I say, "prove it." Too bad, though, you can't move or speak. According to you, if you don't act or say anything by way of proof, we should conclude that you don't love your mother!

You don't love your mother, Raj. Is that fair of me to say? I'm sorry, but this is exactly what you are saying with respect to Christ's teaching.

It is clear that love and faith exist in the heart before obedience.
__________

Performance of the Christ commands is DEFINLTELY EQUATED WITH LOVING HIM.

The quote from John in your OP says differently. Jesus says only that those who love him obey his commands. That's quite a bit different than, "you don't love me until you obey my commands."

Try this one on for size: love never fails. Have you heard that before? Well, that's precisely what you seem to be overlooking here. Put in another way: if a person loves Jesus, he or she will not fail to obey.

Love never fails. Run with it.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Im saying that the words of Christ CANNOT be wrong and that any statement by any LESSER AUTHORITY must be interpreted in the light of what Christ said.

So Christ basically said that if you keep his commandments then he will make his abode with you.

You now quote John [a lesser authority] as saying ..

[i]1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jes ...[text shortened]... ats your choice. Everyone has their own path to Christ ... or wherever else they are heading.

Were you actually yelling at me by using capital letters? Lol

I simply answered you with scripture ( which you ignored).

I also answered you politely , lovingly. I may be wrong, but that doesn't mean your right.

I don't know what lesser authority you speak of. Gods word is equal. To say otherwise is absurd. It must all fit. It is All God inspired is it not?

Do you go have a man obsolve you of your sins instead of going directly to God yourself? I ask because this may explain your 'lesser authority' stance more clearly for me.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]If he had failed to prove that love by obedience then his love or belief would have been empty or dead according to James.

Nothing in my post indicated otherwise, Raj.
__________

Love is not an abstract thing.

Before it manifests itself in action, love is definitely abstract.

Allow me to demonstrate. Let's say you're locked up ...[text shortened]... Jesus, he or she will not fail to obey.

Love never fails. Run with it.[/b]

Before it manifests itself in action, love is definitely abstract.

Allow me to demonstrate. Let's say you're locked up in prison, Raj. You are bound hand and foot and cannot speak or move. I ask you if you love your mother. Of course you do. I say, "prove it." Too bad, though, you can't move or speak. According to you, if you don't act or say anything by way of proof, we should conclude that you don't love your mother!

Let's try, "Before it manifests itself to the beloved, love is definitely abstract."

If the beloved is the divine Jesus, manifesting genuine love to Jesus while tied up should be no big deal.

What seems to be underlying this thread is the error that your love of Jesus needs to be manifested to humans.

I wonder why this is so hard for the Christians here to understand.

Originally posted by JS357
Since raj thinks it a waste of time, I won't reply to him, but this reply does respond to him, as well as to you.

It is not foreign to the idea of scriptural authority, that scripture itself could be where we find guidance on our use and reliance on the selfsame scripture. For example, in the Bible, we can find pronouncements to the effect that the Bible is ...[text shortened]... tanding of the rationale for apostolic authority. I am certainly not "pitching" it here.

Obviously what you call apostolic succession is a farce and a joke for any serious Christian. If it were something bona fide and divinely inspired surely there would not be the hundreds of Christian sects all preaching contrary doctrines many of which do not exist in the Bible.

Originally posted by boonon
Were you actually yelling at me by using capital letters? Lol

I simply answered you with scripture ( which you ignored).

I also answered you politely , lovingly. I may be wrong, but that doesn't mean your right.

I don't know what lesser authority you speak of. Gods word is equal. To say otherwise is absurd. It must all fit. It is All God inspired ...[text shortened]... yourself? I ask because this may explain your 'lesser authority' stance more clearly for me.

Capitalizing letters is one way to place stress on those words.

All of scripture may be God-inspired but it is certainly not all required for attaining eternal life. If you place the words of a man above that of Christ then you are going to be on the wrong road.

The Bible is clear that Christ and his teachings and doctrine and commandments are essential for Christian living and for the Christian hope of eternal life.

Read your Bible.

Originally posted by jaywill
We should continue to be perfected not out of works of the law by by walking by the Spirit.

Jaywill, it is truly amazing that you can write so much without saying anything of substance. Are you a politician or are you are a searcher of truth?

Of what relevance is it how Christ makes his abode with a believer? The question in case if flew over your head is .. AT WHAT POINT DOES CHRIST MAKES HIS ABODE WITH THOSE CLAIMING TO BE FAITHFUL ?

And Christ's answer is .. IF AND WHEN THEY FOLLOW HIS COMMANDMENTS. Did you miss the point? Is it your aim to dance around the main point hoping that people wont notice? Is that how your church operates?

DO you have a comment on the main point? You quoted Paul as saying that Christ will make his home in their hearts through faith. Plus you make other references to faith. What is FAITH? What does faith in Christ entail?

Please give some examples?
Is faith just TALKING, SINGING, SHOUTING "I LOVE JESUS" PRAYING?? Speaking in tongues? Is it your feeling? Meditating?
Can you explain what faith entails?

Next, this is an interesting statement ..

..We should continue to be perfected not out of works of the law by by walking by the Spirit.

How does one walk in the Spirit? How does one become perfected if not out of works of the law? That is an example of how you subtly state that works is of no value. The Bible clearly says

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

BY WORKS IS FAITH MADE PERFECT. WORKS JAYWILL ... !!

Just about all of what you say is contrary to the teachings of Christ. Are you the same person who said that you see Christ and speak to Christ ?