1. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Mar '12 10:511 edit
    Christ said :
    John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:

    There is a clear sequence here :

    1. Know and Keep Christ's commandments [chief of which is to love God and love your neighbour as yourself]. If you succeed in that then ..

    2. Christ will see that it is YOU who loves Him [because YOU keep His commandments], and if YOU love Christ then God will love you also and Christ will manifest himself to YOU .. Then

    3. Christ will make his abode with YOU.

    Finally Christ makes it clear that if you dont love Him, then you wont keep his commandments.

    Christians in general however seem to believe the following :

    1. Believe in Christ and get Baptised
    2. Receive Holy Spirit, Regenerate, Get saved etc, and only then
    3. Christ lives with them [makes his abode] and then they do good works, and follow Christ commandments.

    Can any Christian provide some clear supporting references from the Bible that this sequence is correct and the one Christ laid out is wrong.
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    11 Mar '12 11:04
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Christ said :
    [quote]John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said un ...[text shortened]... g references from the Bible that this sequence is correct and the one Christ laid out is wrong.
    There have been other translations since the middle ages, just saying
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Mar '12 11:08
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    There have been other translations since the middle ages, just saying
    Do you have a translation in mind which changes the meaning of the KJV?
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    11 Mar '12 11:321 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Do you have a translation in mind which changes the meaning of the KJV?
    the King James version itself is not a translation, its a translation of a translation, that
    being the Latin Vulgate. There were at the time literally a handful of Greek
    manuscripts available to the translators, never the less they did an admirable job with
    what they had. I just think terms like, sayeth, seeketh and verily unto thee i say, are
    rather archaic. Yes the New world translation of the Holy scriptures, independently
    verified as the most accurate of modern English translations, but hey, not that i am
    biased or anything. 😉

    THE choice of Bible Version is never easy. For many years there was no choice: the
    King James (Authorised) Version therefore became well known and well loved, even
    though with passing years some of its vocabulary grew archaic and a few words
    changed their meanings quite substantially.

    http://www.thechristadelphian.com/magazine/archive/july09.html

    but i realise that this is not the topic of your post Raj and i dont want to hijack it,
    even though the subject is close to me heart.
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Mar '12 11:431 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    the King James version itself is not a translation, its a translation of a translation, that
    being the Latin Vulgate. There were at the time literally a handful of Greek
    manuscripts available to the translators, never the less they did an admirable job with
    what they had. I just think terms like, sayeth, seeketh and verily unto thee i say, ar ...[text shortened]... c of your post Raj and i dont want to hijack it,
    even though the subject is close to me heart.
    OK .. your New World translation says

    John 14:21-24 21 He that has my commandments and observes them, that one is he who loves me. In turn he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him.” Judas, not Is·car´i·ot, said to him: “Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself plainly to us and not to the world?” In answer Jesus said to him: “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make our abode with him. He that does not love me does not observe my words..

    The essence of the passage remains the same. Probably clearer in this translation ..

    1. If you observe Christs' commandments
    2. Then God will love you.
    3. Then Christ will make his abode with you.

    DO you have any comment on the OP re the apparent discrepancy between the words of Christ and the doctrine of modern Christianity ?
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    11 Mar '12 12:155 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    OK .. your New World translation says

    John 14:21-24 21 He that has my commandments and observes them, that one is he who loves me. In turn he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him.” Judas, not Is·car´i·ot, said to him: “Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself plainly to us the apparent discrepancy between the words of Christ and the doctrine of modern Christianity ?
    DO you have any comment on the OP re the apparent discrepancy between the words of Christ and the doctrine of modern Christianity ?

    mmm, my own thought is that if you are truly a recipient of the Holy spirit then it will be
    apparent in your actions, baptism on its own is nothing, indeed there is no evidence
    that any of the apostles even received a Christian baptism, its simply a symbolic
    gesture of dedication to God. I find born again christians to be much scarier than the
    Muslims or any other of the supposed militants that i meet. Its simply not possible to
    generalise in this way, everyone is an individual and its clear that God views persons as
    such.

    what i think happens and this has been my experience and i have asked others as
    well, is that a person makes an effort to get to know God and God meets them half
    way. For example i have seen not a few drug users who really tried to clean up their
    lives, at that point they come into contact with a Christian and the word is opened up
    to them. If they respond appreciatively then Holy spirit helps them bring their lives
    into harmony with Gods standards, they discard their former practices, then if they
    remain so they are then in a position to make a dedication to God is full
    consciousness. Then once they are able to help themselves they are then in a
    position to help others. This i have seen with my own eyes in not a few cases,
    although the process is slow and requires much patience, many times the student
    falls down and we need to pick them up again.

    The problem that i have is those who profess to be christians who are clearly leading
    a debauched life, where is the metamorphosis from old to knew, the regeneration
    that you mention?
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    11 Mar '12 12:30
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Christ said :
    [quote]John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said un ...[text shortened]... g references from the Bible that this sequence is correct and the one Christ laid out is wrong.
    Jesus forgave the thief on the cross next to Him out of the order you are
    claiming must be followed, I'll take Jesus' words and actions over you, there
    were people who were filled with the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts before
    they were water baptized, again out of your order. You really should pray
    about your legal vews of on what God has done for us. You are missing out
    on the best part of being a Christain it seems like.
    Kelly
  8. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Mar '12 13:352 edits
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Jesus forgave the thief on the cross next to Him out of the order you are
    claiming must be followed, I'll take Jesus' words and actions over you, there
    were people who were filled with the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts before
    they were water baptized, again out of your order. You really should pray
    about your legal vews of on what God has done for us. You are missing out
    on the best part of being a Christain it seems like.
    Kelly
    First, you appear to be doubting Johns record of the words of Christ. I find that interesting.

    Next, this is not about me or you so any comment about what I should do will fall on deaf ears. I dont ever ask you about yourself. Why ? .. because Im not interested, and its of no relevance to discussing doctrine. Your salvation is between you and Christ. When we discuss doctrine the only important words are the words of Christ and the Apostles. Sorry but your opinion does not count. Do you have any references to contradict or void what John reported that Christ said?

    Third, you seem not to be able to grasp the difference between a general rule, and an exception to the rule. Exceptions cannot void the general rule. Christ made a general rule or guideline. Exceptions to that rule were the thief on the cross and the day of Pentecost.

    Is it your claim therefore that all of Christianity fall in one of the exceptions - thief on the cross or day of Pentecost?
  9. Standard memberKellyJay
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    11 Mar '12 16:161 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    First, you appear to be doubting Johns record of the words of Christ. I find that interesting.

    Next, this is not about me or you so any comment about what I should do will fall on deaf ears. I dont ever ask you about yourself. Why ? .. because Im not interested, and its of no relevance to discussing doctrine. Your salvation is between you and Christ. W ...[text shortened]... that all of Christianity fall in one of the exceptions - thief on the cross or day of Pentecost?
    Not doubting scripture just the way your attempting to turn it into specific
    order, and Pentecost is another example yes, but not the one I was speaking
    about. With your exceptions of rules, since it is God doing the exceptions
    how in the world would you know God is not doing more?
    Kelly
  10. SubscriberSuzianne
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    11 Mar '12 20:072 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Christ said :
    [quote]John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said un g references from the Bible that this sequence is correct and the one Christ laid out is wrong.
    Yet another who "makes the Bible his Lord", instead of Jesus.

    Your post is more about the man's actual words, and how you can squeeze your own meaning from them, than it is about what you may think He meant by them.

    Commandments or not, Jesus knows what is in your heart, and acts accordingly. You, in your holier-than-thou outlook, prefer to obey what you think is the meaning of your Lord (the Bible) instead of Jesus. His ministry is for all men. Even those who need a little extra help coming to Jesus. In fact, given the accounting of His actual ministry, one might say that He specializes in ministering to those who do need the "extra help" in coming to Him.

    You can put out your "3 Steps to Being a True Christian™" all day, but if you follow the Bible instead of Christ, you're going nowhere.

    And please, PLEASE, for the Love of God, do NOT ask me for a Biblical reference for what I just wrote. I'm not surprised you miss my point entirely. You've already missed Jesus' point.
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    11 Mar '12 21:074 edits
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Yet another who "makes the Bible his Lord", instead of Jesus.

    Your post is more about the man's actual words, and how you can squeeze your own meaning from them, than it is about what you may think He meant by them.

    Commandments or not, Jesus knows what is in your heart, and acts accordingly. You, in your holier-than-thou outlook, prefer to obey what . I'm not surprised you miss my point entirely. You've already missed Jesus' point.
    Actually all we know about Jesus teaching is in the Bible, he did after all say Gods word
    is truth, just saying, indeed I find that those Christians who substitute a type of
    emotionalism are the least likely to know anything about scripture, they're too busy
    clapping and praisin da lord to study its contents seriously which is rather ironic
    considering its a product of Holy spirit, or so it claims. Indeed how are we supposed to
    follow Jesus as you claim without examining the Bible, do tell.
  12. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Mar '12 23:34
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Yet another who "makes the Bible his Lord", instead of Jesus.

    Your post is more about the man's actual words, and how you can squeeze your own meaning from them, than it is about what you may think He meant by them.

    Commandments or not, Jesus knows what is in your heart, and acts accordingly. You, in your holier-than-thou outlook, prefer to obey what ...[text shortened]... . I'm not surprised you miss my point entirely. You've already missed Jesus' point.
    Do you have a reference for that ?
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Mar '12 23:421 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    A .. how are we supposed to follow Jesus as you claim without examining the Bible, do tell.
    Good question .. which unfortunately will get no intelligent answer.
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Mar '12 23:55
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Yet another who "makes the Bible his Lord", instead of Jesus.

    Your post is more about the man's actual words, and how you can squeeze your own meaning from them, than it is about what you may think He meant by them.

    Commandments or not, Jesus knows what is in your heart, and acts accordingly. You, in your holier-than-thou outlook, prefer to obey what ...[text shortened]... . I'm not surprised you miss my point entirely. You've already missed Jesus' point.
    Christ said .. WORKS FIRST .. then he will dwell with you.

    Sorry to sink your little fantasy island.
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    11 Mar '12 23:58
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Good question .. which unfortunately will get no intelligent answer.
    Maybe the idea is to rely on the spiritual descendants of Christ to understand and transmit the lessons of the Bible, according to our needs. After all, "The Church Precedes the New Testament."

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

    Chapter III.

    "Our Blessed Lord Himself never, so far as we know, wrote a line of Scripture—certainly none that has been preserved. He never told His Apostles to write anything. He did not command them to commit to writing what He had delivered to them: but He said, 'Go ye and teach all nations', 'preach the Gospel to every creature' , 'He that heareth you heareth Me'. What He commanded and meant them to do was precisely what He had done Himself, viz.—deliver the Word of God to the people by the living voice—convince , persuade, instruct, convert them by addressing themselves face to face to living men and women; not intrust their message to a dead book which might perish and be destroyed, and be misunderstood and misinterpreted and corrupted, but adopt the more safe and natural way of presenting the truth to them by word of mouth, and of training others to do the same after they themselves were gone, and so by a living tradition, preserving and handing down the Word of God as they had received it, to all generations. "
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