Works first then 'Abode'

Originally posted by Rajk999
Capitalizing letters is one way to place stress on those words.

All of scripture may be God-inspired but it is certainly not all required for attaining eternal life. If you place the words of a man above that of Christ then you are going to be on the wrong road.

The Bible is clear that Christ and his teachings and doctrine and commandments are essential for Christian living and for the Christian hope of eternal life.

Read your Bible.

So you are still choosing to ignore the scripture I gave you.

The bible is God inspired, not man.

I have read my Bible, not just the parts I like ( un like you).

Originally posted by boonon
So you are still choosing to ignore the scripture I gave you.

The bible is God inspired, not man.

I have read my Bible, not just the parts I like ( un like you).

What scripture did I ignore?

You quoted .. 1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

What was the point of that and how does it relate to the point in the opening post?

Originally posted by JS357
[quote]Before it manifests itself in action, love is definitely abstract.

Allow me to demonstrate. Let's say you're locked up in prison, Raj. You are bound hand and foot and cannot speak or move. I ask you if you love your mother. Of course you do. I say, "prove it." Too bad, though, you can't move or speak. According to you, if you don't act or say anythin ...[text shortened]... sted to humans.

I wonder why this is so hard for the Christians here to understand.

I missed the point of this post. Can you restate it in different words if possible?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
..Love never fails. Run with it.

First, your illustration is similar to the one like the 'thief on the cross', which certain people use to prove that all you have to do is to accept Christ with your mouth and you will be saved. And my response to that is that you cannot use an exception to a rule to void that rule. If you are genuinely unable to demonstrate love for your mother/Christ, Christ in his infinite wisdom and who will judge fairly and who knows your heart, is going to accept/reject as is appropriate.

Next, I totally agree that love never fails. Thats the point Im making and not overlooking. Love never fails and always demonstrates itself by action. Will any person accept love from another which is does not translate into good deeds? Definitely not. Christ is saying exactly that.

Obey first, then he will make his abode with you.

Originally posted by Rajk999
What scripture did I ignore?

You quoted .. 1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

What was the point of that and how does it relate to the point in the opening post?

I quoted much more than that. Go back and see. You just choose to ignore them. That's ok with me.

My point is that when you confess, you receive. Simple and to the point.

You say works first. If you look at the scripture I gave you , you will see that it is not works first. You are wrong.


That's all. No more , no less. Guess I'm done here because you only see what you want. That is fine too, but don't tell me I'm wrong just because you think your right.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Jaywill, it is truly amazing that you can write so much without saying anything of substance. Are you a politician or are you are a searcher of truth?

Of what relevance is it how Christ makes his abode with a believer? The question in case if flew over your head is .. AT WHAT POINT DOES CHRIST MAKES HIS ABODE WITH THOSE CLAIMING TO BE FAITHFUL ?

And achings of Christ. Are you the same person who said that you see Christ and speak to Christ ?

Jaywill, it is truly amazing that you can write so much without saying anything of substance. Are you a politician or are you are a searcher of truth?

This retort does not impress me at all. it may have some entertainment value to some here.

Get to your points if you have some.

Of what relevance is it how Christ makes his abode with a believer?

The relevance was covered by my referencing this passage:

"This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of the law or out of the hearing of faith ?

Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh" (Gal 3:2,3)

These two sentences guard the Christians from falling into a legalism which your theology seems to wish to push.

Whether it is a legalism based on the Mosiac Law or on some new Christian behavior legalism, we received the Spirit through faith. And we are further perfected by living by that Spirit.

I feel that in Paul's letter of Galatians, you are more on the side of the problem of the judiazers rather than the solution presented by the apostles.

The question in case if flew over your head is .. AT WHAT POINT DOES CHRIST MAKES HIS ABODE WITH THOSE CLAIMING TO BE FAITHFUL ?

This aspect of your comment also was NOT ignored. I think my reply may have gone over your head.

To the issue of WHAT POINT were addressed my comments about the continual growth, ongoing process, and ever deepening operation of Christ forming in the believers, making His home in their hearts, and on going conforming them to His image.

If you reply that the love of the brothers is the "POINT" I do not disagree. But love of the brothers and of the Lord for that matter is ever deepening, ever growing, developing, maturing.

There may be a discreet point in time in which one can say "I received the Lord into my heart". But the subsequent maturity, if normal, should be a growing matter. Locating a discreet POINT of maturity cannot be too legal.

Hopefully, I will love the Lord and the brothers more tomorrow than today. Hopefully I will keep the Lord's word more tomorrow than today. If my maturing is not impeded I should keep His commandments more as time goes by.

And Christ's answer is .. IF AND WHEN THEY FOLLOW HIS COMMANDMENTS.

I do not disagree. But the keeping of the Lord's commandments deepens as one grows.

His commandments are instant and living, coming into our conscience from our spirit and from His word. His requirement shines brighter as we grow. His command deepens as we confess our sins and develop. This cycle lasts throughout the entire Christian life.

The commands of the indwelling Lord Jesus are of on level the first week the new believer is saved. If he continues to confess his wrongdoings and obey the Lord, those commands will deepen, broaden, and become more penetrating.

Don't be too legal about locating the exact discreet POINT in which one may boast "I have now kept the commandments of Jesus."

It is better to realize that one is learning to do so, more and more in the normal way of growth, maturation, and development.

Did you miss the point? Is it your aim to dance around the main point hoping that people wont notice? Is that how your church operates?

You are now going back to inneffective retorts which fail to impress me in the least.

I think some objective writers can see that above I have repeated points which I already made. The one failing to grasp the substance of my replies may be you.

DO you have a comment on the main point? You quoted Paul as saying that Christ will make his home in their hearts through faith.

That is what Paul said.
That is what Christ said.
That is even what the Old Testament said.

"The righteous shall have life and live BY FAITH" (See Habakkuk 2:4) And this is refered to in Hebrews 10:38 and quoted by Paul in Romans 1:17:

Paul - "For the rigthteousness of God is revealed in it [the gospel in which he is not ashamed (v.16) ] out of faith to faith, as it is WRITTEN, "But the righteous shall have life and live by faith." "

Paul is quoting HABAKKUK 2:4 explaining that FAITH has always been the underlying foundation for righteous living unto God.

Now come back up to Galatians are realize that the audience of that letter RECEIVED the Holy Spirit through faith. And Christ also makes His abode AS the Spirit, the divine WE of the Father and the Son, through faith.

In John 14 keeping His word is also a matter basically of FAITH and TRUST:

"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

Plus you make other references to faith. What is FAITH? What does faith in Christ entail?

Please give some examples?
Is faith just TALKING, SINGING, SHOUTING "I LOVE JESUS" PRAYING?? Speaking in tongues? Is it your feeling? Meditating?
Can you explain what faith entails?

Maybe in another post if not entire discussion, we can talk about that.

I guess my main point in this reply is to demonstrate to the reasonable follower of the discussion, that I didn't overlook your points as you accused.

"WHAT IS FAITH?" I think, is a whole new discussion. And I would say biblical faith is a unique thing. Hebrews defines it as a "substantiating of the things unseen ... evidence of things hoped for".


That's all, for length's sake, I am writing now.

This sounds like a classic example of the Bible's inconsistency and internal contradictions, allowing people to find passages that support whatever views they like.

Each to his own secret decoder ring.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
This sounds like a classic example of the Bible's inconsistency and internal contradictions, allowing people to find passages that support whatever views they like.

Each to his own secret decoder ring.

--- Penguin.

Your comment is not clever. It only shows that in about 2,000 years of capable minds experiencing and discussing such things (albeit not always in complete agreement ) you are able to make a juvenile dismissal.

You're not that clever.

And if participating in this Forum is a waste of your time, Guess what ?

Go away and make more meaningful use of your time.

Originally posted by boonon
.. don't tell me I'm wrong .

Christ says you are wrong. Not me.
Deal with that.

Originally posted by Penguin
This sounds like a classic example of the Bible's inconsistency and internal contradictions, allowing people to find passages that support whatever views they like.

Each to his own secret decoder ring.

--- Penguin.

This sounds like a classic example of the Bible's inconsistency and internal contradictions, allowing people to find passages that support whatever views they like.

This criticism is like a person noticing a contradiction in the way a parent raises a child. After breast feeding a child or using a bottle the mother may then begin to use a spoon.

Sometime after this is the child's maturation, the mother may say "Use your fingers to to eat." Latter after further growth she say "Use your fork. Don't use your fingers".

The apparent contradictions reflects changing level in maturity in the growth process.


The Bible also is a progressive revelation. Even in the secular world I think it was Emmerson who pointed out:

"A foolish consistancy is the hobgooblins of little minds."

So we who are pursuing the wisdom of the bible should beware of little minds whining about inconsistancies in the progressive communication from God to man in His word. It is usually just an excuse to rationalize the irrelevance of God to their lives.

Originally posted by jaywill

Jaywill, it is truly amazing that you can write so much without saying anything of substance. Are you a politician or are you are a searcher of truth?

This retort does not impress me at all. it may have some entertainment value to some here.

Get to your points if you have some.

[quote]
Of what relevance is it how Christ makes for".


That's all, for length's sake, I am writing now.[/b]

Your answer is as clear as mud. Thanks.

Im pretty sure that you possess neither the appropriate intellect nor understanding required for the instruction of others. You should, if you have a conscience desist from teaching. Clean up your own mind and thoughts and ask God for wisdom to repeat faithfully the teachings of Christ to others, so that your words will guide them to eternal life rather than damnation.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Your answer is as clear as mud. Thanks.

Im pretty sure that you possess neither the appropriate intellect nor understanding required for the instruction of others. You should, if you have a conscience desist from teaching. Clean up your own mind and thoughts and ask God for wisdom to repeat faithfully the teachings of Christ to others, so that your words will guide them to eternal life rather than damnation.

Your answer is as clear as mud. Thanks.

I think you need to open to the possibility that the muddiness may be on your side.

I may be playing a violin sonata to a bull. It just doesn't sound like anything to the beast.

This is not mean to insult. Maybe I am just over estimating your experience.

Im pretty sure that you possess neither the appropriate intellect nor understanding required for the instruction of others. You should, if you have a conscience desist from teaching. Clean up your own mind and thoughts and ask God for wisdom to repeat faithfully the teachings of Christ to others, so that your words will guide them to eternal life rather than damnation.

I have no intention of desisting from teaching. I have led many people to become disciples of Jesus, not as many I would like. But I have led some people to believe into Christ.

Why should I desist when you're too religious and inexperienced to grasp sound NT analysis ?

Originally posted by jaywill

This sounds like a classic example of the Bible's inconsistency and internal contradictions, allowing people to find passages that support whatever views they like.

This criticism is like a person noticing a contradiction in the way a parent raises a child. After breast feeding a child or using a bottle the mother may then begin to u ...[text shortened]... rd. It is usually just an excuse to rationalize the irrelevance of God to their lives.

I think your first response was the better one.

Your analogy of the parent raising a child is not adequate. It is more like a parent breastfeeding for breakfast, then telling the child to use a knife and fork for lunch, spoon-feeding for tea and telling the child to use their fingers for supper. And then the next day using a different order again.

I think you would be justified in criticising that parent's lack of consistency.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
I think your first response was the better one.

Your analogy of the parent raising a child is not adequate. It is more like a parent breastfeeding for breakfast, then telling the child to use a knife and fork for lunch, spoon-feeding for tea and telling the child to use their fingers for supper. And then the next day using a different order again.

I think you would be justified in criticising that parent's lack of consistency.

--- Penguin.

The New Testament says the law was a schoolmaster leading the people to grace. So we are not making an analogy over devolopment over one day but over a much longer period of time. This school mastering was over an age or two.

Originally posted by jaywill
The New Testament says the law was a schoolmaster leading the people to grace. So we are not making an analogy over devolopment over one day but over a much longer period of time. This school mastering was over an age or two.

Yes but you have only one book, containing all the (often contradictory) teachings, with no indication of which lesson should be taken when.

So its a pretty disorganised schoolmaster. No wonder there are at least 8 major denominations and countless flavours, each with their own interpretation of the Bible's teachings.

--- Penguin.