Your Back Against the Wall

Originally posted by whodey
I would say that his love for self was greater at that moment than his love for God. Fair enough?

Why the word 'his'? I am referring to you. Are you telling me that Jesus asked his followers to be ready to die for him, but you won't even refrain from simple dishonesty? No wonder you argue so strongly against anyone who talks about 'works'.

Originally posted by vistesd
[One loves or one doesn’t: the rest is just why or why not (for good reason or ill). I certainly don’t judge people for failing to love. But I do condemn attempts to water down love in order to hide our failings—or “God’s failings”, for that matter (by which I really mean the attempt to water down love in order to account for this or that cherished piece of theology).[/b]

When talking about love, what are we discussing? From my persepctive, the God kind of love is given by the parable of the Good Samaritan. This is the example God gave us in relation to each other. Could one judge those who did not help the dying man? I think they could.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why the word 'his'? I am referring to you. Are you telling me that Jesus asked his followers to be ready to die for him, but you won't even refrain from simple dishonesty? No wonder you argue so strongly against anyone who talks about 'works'.

What are you asking of me specifically?

Jesus said that whoever loves his life more than himself he is not worthy of him. Nuff said.

Originally posted by whodey
What are you asking of me specifically?

Jesus said that whoever loves his life more than himself he is not worthy of him. Nuff said.

It seems you love your reputation more than you love God. Does that also make you not worthy of him?

Originally posted by twhitehead
It seems you love your reputation more than you love God. Does that also make you not worthy of him?

Its not my reputation at stake, rather, it is the one we represent that counts. We are to be lights unto the world. We are not the light, it is Christ in us.

If we fear death more than we fear denying our God, what does that say about our faith?

Originally posted by whodey
Its not my reputation at stake, rather, it is the one we represent that counts. We are to be lights unto the world. We are not the light, it is Christ in us.

Yet you continue to dance around the issue - presumably because you value your reputation and fear it will come into disrepute if you admit your errors.

If we fear death more than we fear denying our God, what does that say about our faith?
Who cares about your faith? I thought we were discussing love. You only care about your faith because you fear death.

Originally posted by josephw
If some one put a gun to your head, and told you to deny what you believe or die, what would you do?

reason and common sense dictate that you of course comply with the request of the wacko threatening your life at gunpoint. The words mean nothing, actions mean everything.

Originally posted by josephw
If some one put a gun to your head, and told you to deny what you believe or die, what would you do?

I imagine someone's going to get shot regardless.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yet you continue to dance around the issue - presumably because you value your reputation and fear it will come into disrepute if you admit your errors.

[b]If we fear death more than we fear denying our God, what does that say about our faith?
Who cares about your faith? I thought we were discussing love. You only care about your faith because you fear death.[/b]

I'll take one more stab at this. The reason Christians are willing to go to their grave rather than deny their Master is NOT because they are afraid of death. If they were afraid to die, they would do anything, including denying their Master. Thre reason that we do not deny our God is because of our love for our fellow man who is lost as well as our love for our God who seeks to save those who are lost. It is a testimony to men that their faith is real and worth dying for. As Christians, our testimony is all we have.

Originally posted by whodey
When talking about love, what are we discussing? From my persepctive, the God kind of love is given by the parable of the Good Samaritan. This is the example God gave us in relation to each other. Could one judge those who did not help the dying man? I think they could.

As I said before, to love the created more than the creator is folly.

And I am suggesting that “more and less” here is already missing the mark, and misunderstanding.

However, to have a mutually loving relationship faith is a requirement on some level.

This seems right. But must love insist on mutuality? That question, I think, really goes to the heart of our (possible) differences.

From my persepctive, the God kind of love is given by the parable of the Good Samaritan.

I agree! And in the parable, what did the Samaritan require of the man in the ditch (us)? Nothing. Not returned love, not faith, not works, not even recognition—nothing. The Samaritan acted with love, as a lover, period. And, I would say, not under command (especially if the Samaritan is God/Christ in the parable) or as a “sacrifice”.

Have I ever responded like that to someone I did not know, and who could not offer any “return” at all? Yes. Have I always (that is, in all such situations that I have been confronted with)? No. Is my ability to love as radical as that? I think so (based on evidence so far). Is it as universal as the gospel message seems to lay out? No, it is not. I am not able to love you as radically as I love my wife. So, understand that it is only the radicality that I can argue for, not the universality.

And I trust that you understand by now that that radicality is not a claim of any ethical virtue. Once again, in that “space” such talk makes no sense…

Originally posted by whodey
I'll take one more stab at this. The reason Christians are willing to go to their grave rather than deny their Master is NOT because they are afraid of death. If they were afraid to die, they would do anything, including denying their Master. Thre reason that we do not deny our God is because of our love for our fellow man who is lost as well as our love f ...[text shortened]... men that their faith is real and worth dying for. As Christians, our testimony is all we have.

I do not believe you. Partly because your story seems to change with every post. Seems a bit silly to die for a concept you are not even sure of.
I do not believe that you would willingly die simply to set an example to me.
Would your decision be different if you and the gunman were in a closed room and you new that he would lie about any testimony that you gave? (thus making your example useless).

If your testimony is all you have then you lead a very sad life as your testimony so far - in terms of living by example, which is what is under discussion - is pretty poor.

Originally posted by vistesd
I agree! And in the parable, what did the Samaritan require of the man in the ditch (us)? Nothing. Not returned love, not faith, not works, not even recognition—nothing. The Samaritan acted with love, as a lover, period. And, I would say, not under command (especially if the Samaritan is God/Christ in the parable) or as a “sacrifice”.

You give some very good points about love.
I would like to add an observation of mine.
Often we find that the object of our love is not real but an object of our imagination. When we discover that the object in reality does not match what we thought it was (the object of our love) we must then decide whether to love the actual object or to discard our love. Dealing with this problem can be very difficult as love is to a large extent not subject to choice. We may even go to the extent of denying reality and continuing to love an imaginary object.
Person to Spouse: You are not the person I fell in love with.
Spouse: Was I ever?

Originally posted by twhitehead
You give some very good points about love.
I would like to add an observation of mine.
Often we find that the object of our love is not real but an object of our imagination. When we discover that the object in reality does not match what we thought it was (the object of our love) we must then decide whether to love the actual object or to discard our l ...[text shortened]... nary object.
Person to Spouse: You are not the person I fell in love with.
Spouse: Was I ever?

Yes, I think that's an important observation.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You give some very good points about love.
I would like to add an observation of mine.
Often we find that the object of our love is not real but an object of our imagination. When we discover that the object in reality does not match what we thought it was (the object of our love) we must then decide whether to love the actual object or to discard our l ...[text shortened]... nary object.
Person to Spouse: You are not the person I fell in love with.
Spouse: Was I ever?

What you are dscussing are "feelings". However, when Christ said to love those who persecute you and despitefully use you, how is what you say relavent to the discussion at hand? I think we are once again misusing the term love to cover a variety of expressions. The type I am talking about is agape. Again, the example of the Good Samaritan is an example. The people who passed him by, being people who should have had positive feelings for him, did nothing to help as where the Samaritan who should have had negative feelings for him helped him.
This was by design. In fact, there was never even a word spoken between them. Where then is the emotional connection?

Originally posted by vistesd
I agree! And in the parable, what did the Samaritan require of the man in the ditch (us)? Nothing. Not returned love, not faith, not works, not even recognition—nothing. The Samaritan acted with love, as a lover, period. And, I would say, not under command (especially if the Samaritan is God/Christ in the parable) or as a “sacrifice”.

But the parable did not end there, did it? The Good Samaritan did not stick around to finish the job, did he? In fact, he took the dying man to the inkeeper and instructed him to care for him. So who do you suppose takes the role of the inkeeper? I think it are those in Christ. Like the inkeeper, we were bought with a price and have a repsonsibility for the hurt and dying. Of course, not all of them will saved either because of the neglagence of the inkeeper or perhaps because of the extent of the dying mans wounds etc. In either event, you are right in that nothing changed the love that caused the Good Samaritan to take pity on the dying man. Win, lose, or draw the love never changes.