01 Nov 09
I don't really believe much, so I can't comment, but once when I was stuck in the car with my brother-in-law and he was listening to his favorite local conservative talk show host, there was a segment about such statements being forced upon people in the Middle East. He posed the question: If one of your grandchildren had a gun to your head and you were told to read a statement proclaiming your devotion to Islam, would you do it?
One woman called in and said that she would not do it. That amazed me. He asked her more and she simply said that her entire family had a strong belief in the Christian version of God and that it would do more harm than good to not read the statement.
01 Nov 09
Originally posted by randolph"One woman called in and said that she would not do it. That amazed me. He asked her more and she simply said that her entire family had a strong belief in the Christian version of God and that it would do more harm than good to not read the statement."
I don't really believe much, so I can't comment, but once when I was stuck in the car with my brother-in-law and he was listening to his favorite local conservative talk show host, there was a segment about such statements being forced upon people in the Middle East. He posed the question: If one of your grandchildren had a gun to your head and you were tol ...[text shortened]... e Christian version of God and that it would do more harm than good to not read the statement.
Wait a minute. She said she would not do it, and then said it would do more harm than good to not read the statement?
Care to clarify?
02 Nov 09
Originally posted by josephwSorry. The "not" was a typo.
[b]"One woman called in and said that she would not do it. That amazed me. He asked her more and she simply said that her entire family had a strong belief in the Christian version of God and that it would do more harm than good to not read the statement."
Wait a minute. She said she would not do it, and then said it would do more harm than good to not read the statement?
Care to clarify?[/b]
02 Nov 09
Originally posted by josephwFor my life: I would lie. (You haven’t spelled out the possibility of any consequences for others if I lie&hellip😉
If some one put a gun to your head, and told you to deny what you believe or die, what would you do?
For the life of someone else: I would lie. (The “There aren’t any Jews hiding in my attic, Herr SS officer” scenario.)
Now, if there are negative consequences to others if I lie—that might change things.
02 Nov 09
Originally posted by josephwEverything vistesd just said.
If some one put a gun to your head, and told you to deny what you believe or die, what would you do?
I must ask, why would anyone do different?
I know that Christians put a lot of emphasis on professing their beliefs regardless of the consequences, but I do not understand why. Lying is not uncommon for Christians, so that can't be it. Is there some command from God not do deny your faith?
To lie about your faith would not show a lack of faith (or it wouldn't be a lie would it?).
Or is it a belief that professing your faith in the face of death makes you a martyr and thus worthy of greater rewards after death?
02 Nov 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadPeter lied that he knew Christ when he was taken to the cross to save his own skin. However, he later regreted denying the love of his life and then gave his own life for his devotion to him. I suspect that this devotion is not explainable to those outside the faith. As Christ once said, if you deny me before men I will deny you before the Father. He who loves his life more than me is not worthy of me. In fact, if love for anything or anyone surpasses the love for God they are not worthy of him.
Everything vistesd just said.
I must ask, why would anyone do different?
I know that Christians put a lot of emphasis on professing their beliefs regardless of the consequences, but I do not understand why. Lying is not uncommon for Christians, so that can't be it. Is there some command from God not do deny your faith?
To lie about your faith would n ...[text shortened]... faith in the face of death makes you a martyr and thus worthy of greater rewards after death?
02 Nov 09
Originally posted by whodeyI think that the god you talk about here is no more than some imagined “thing” more beautiful than anything you actually know—and therefore could actually love—in your life. And this “thing” commands you to love it more than anything or anyone you could actually know.
Peter lied that he knew Christ when he was taken to the cross to save his own skin. However, he later regreted denying the love of his life and then gave his own life for his devotion to him. I suspect that this devotion is not explainable to those outside the faith. As Christ once said, if you deny me before men I will deny you before the Father. He who ...[text shortened]... In fact, if love for anything or anyone surpasses the love for God they are not worthy of him.
How much easier to love the pure ideal! (In your mind!) Easier—I suppose—to love my wife if she never becomes ill?! And you guys call that love?!
I have never understood these abstract, “universal” notions of love. Now, you will probably want to tell me about the great love of this god… First tell me about how you love this god so much that you will sacrifice the life of your wife or child rather than deny this god—and how your god counts that as a better love…
02 Nov 09
Originally posted by whodeyI suspect that it is simply not explainable and the best you can hope for even for those 'inside the faith' is mutual understanding not based on explanation.
I suspect that this devotion is not explainable to those outside the faith.
As Christ once said, if you deny me before men I will deny you before the Father.
So there is a command (or threat), and its curious that you mention it even though you suggest it is not the reason.
He who loves his life more than me is not worthy of me. In fact, if love for anything or anyone surpasses the love for God they are not worthy of him.
Well the question here is whether denying your faith by means of a lie in order to save your life constitutes a lack of love for God. In my opinion, if someone put a gun to my head and said "deny that you love your son or die", I do not think my denial would be an indication that I do not love my son.
Further, though you talk of love of God over yourself you nevertheless put it in words which are essentially selfish (love of self) ie you seek to be 'worthy' of God.
I think that is one of Jesus' central teachings which most Christians seem not to get: he presents a paradox in which it is impossible seek selfish gain ie the most selfless will be rewarded the most. Or maybe they do get it which is why they concentrate more on Paul.
