Your Back Against the Wall

Originally posted by vistesd
Have I ever responded like that to someone I did not know, and who could not offer any “return” at all? Yes. Have I always (that is, in all such situations that I have been confronted with)? No. Is my ability to love as radical as that? I think so (based on evidence so far). Is it as universal as the gospel message seems to lay out? No, it is not. I am ...[text shortened]... ity is not a claim of any ethical virtue. Once again, in that “space” such talk makes no sense…[/b]

I would like to say the same, however, we only consider helping those who are not out to harm us. WHat about those out to harm us? The natural reaction is one of anger regarding the injutice of their actions, but Christ said to overcome this inclination. So have you ever fought fire with fire? I know I have, and in such cases, I have not shown love to my neighbor. At the same time, however, their have been times I have and with miraculous results. Of course, there is a distinct difference between allowing yourself to become a door mat for someone abusing you, that is not what I am talking about, rather, I am talking about seeking vengence. I have, have you violated the command not to seek vengence? In addition, we like to pat ourselves on the back and say we would and have helped those in need, however, there is a hurting and dying world all around us and they are dropping like flies. Considering we know this, what have we actively done to help remedy the situation, or do we just sit around waiting for them to come to us? Of course, I say this conceeding my own guilt. Whether it be lazyness or indifference we all have to account for our inaction. THe quesiton then becomes, how much action is enough? I suppse that is between you and your God.

Originally posted by twhitehead
If your testimony is all you have then you lead a very sad life as your testimony so far - in terms of living by example, which is what is under discussion - is pretty poor.[/b]

My testimony is not just me talking on these threads. It is how I live my life. So do you know how I live my life? Granted, I have not always shown agape love in my life, just like I probably have not on these boards. I don't claim perfection. Having said that, at the same token I'm sure I'm taken the wrong way at times because I think it more important to speak the truth than it is trying not to offend people. This is probaby interpreted as not acting in love when it actually is. Truth offends people, or hadn't you noticed? Hopefully I won't wind up on a cross for it, but ya never know. 😛

Originally posted by whodey
I would like to say the same, however, we only consider helping those who are not out to harm us. WHat about those out to harm us? The natural reaction is one of anger regarding the injutice of their actions, but Christ said to overcome this inclination. So have you ever fought fire with fire? I know I have, and in such cases, I have not shown love to my ...[text shortened]... He quesiton then becomes, how much action is enough? I suppse that is between you and your God.

I've never fought fire with fire.
Here's a tip. If you find yourself in a confrontational situation , a) Don't talk tough,b) maintain eye contact with any would-be foe,c) continue with a and b as you slowly extracate yourself from the situation-without showing fear.

I've done a lot of busking in my time and have had to deal with more than one odd drunken idiot.
What I've found is when confronted by tough talkers who ,"want to have a go", to show no fear. You are an x-factor and could be an escaped,violent,mental patient for all they know,(especially if you maintain the eye contact).
Using this technique I've avoided nearly every possible altracation I've been faced with.
Half the time the aggressor turns around and starts to back off and even "like" you. Other times there is a short "stare-off" followed by a departure by the aggressor.

Originally posted by josephw
If some one put a gun to your head, and told you to deny what you believe or die, what would you do?

Since merely speaking words doesn't change what you believe, I would probably comply.

Originally posted by josephw
If some one put a gun to your head, and told you to deny what you believe or die, what would you do?

Extract from Bible student (Jehovahs Witness) Franz Reiter who rather than compromise his faith and take up arms agaisnt a fellow human being wrote the following,

From Franz Reiter (who was facing death by guillotine) to his mother, January 6, 1940, from the detention center Berlin-Plötzensee:

“I am strongly convinced in my belief that I am acting correctly. Being here, I could still change my mind, but with God this would be disloyalty. All of us here wish to be faithful to God, to his honor. . . . With what I knew, if I had taken the [military] oath, I would have committed a sin deserving death. That would be evil to me. I would have no resurrection. But I stick to that which Christ said: ‘Whosoever will save his life will lose it; but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same will receive it.’ And now, my dear Mother and all my brothers and sisters, today I was told my sentence, and don’t be terrified, it is death, and I will be executed tomorrow morning. I have my strength from God, the same as it always was with all true Christians away back in the past. The apostles write, ‘Whosoever is born from God cannot sin.’ The same goes for me. This I proved to you, and you could recognize it. My dear one, don’t get heavyhearted. It would be good for all of you to know the Holy Scriptures better still. If you will stand firm until death, we shall meet again in the resurrection. . . .

“Your Franz
“Until we meet again.”


From Berthold Szabo, executed by a firing squad, in Körmend, Hungary, on March 2, 1945:


“My dear sister, Marika!
“These one and one half hours I have left, I will try to write to you so that you will be able to let our parents know about my situation, immediately facing death.
“I wish them the same peace of mind that I experience in these last moments in this world fraught with disaster. It is now ten o’clock, and I will be executed at half past eleven; but I am quite calm. My further life I lay into the hands of Jehovah and his Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the King, who will never forget those sincerely loving them. I know too that there will soon be a resurrection of those who died or, rather, who went to sleep, in Christ. I should also like to particularly mention that I wish you all Jehovah’s richest blessings for the love you bestowed on me. Please kiss Father and Mother for me, and Annus too. They should not worry about me; we shall be seeing each other again soon. My hand is calm now, and I shall go to rest until Jehovah calls me again. Even now I shall keep the vow I took for him.
“Now my time is up. May God be with you and with me.

“With much love, . . .
“Berthi”

Translation of Declaration That the SS Tried to Force Witnesses to Sign

Concentration camp .......................................

Department II
DECLARATION
I, the ...................................................
born on ..................................................
in .......................................................
herewith make the following declaration:


1. I have come to know that the International Bible Students Association is proclaiming erroneous teachings and under the cloak of religion follows hostile purposes against the State.
2. I therefore left the organization entirely and made myself absolutely free from the teachings of this sect.
3. I herewith give assurance that I will never again take any part in the activity of the International Bible Students Association. Any persons approaching me with the teaching of the Bible Students, or who in any manner reveal their connections with them, I will denounce immediately. All literature from the Bible Students that should be sent to my address I will at once deliver to the nearest police station.
4. I will in the future esteem the laws of the State, especially in the event of war will I, with weapon in hand, defend the fatherland, and join in every way the community of the people.
5. I have been informed that I will at once be taken again into protective custody if I should act against the declaration given today.
..................................,
Dated ................ ...........................................................
Signature

Originally posted by karoly aczel
[b]I've never fought fire with fire.
Here's a tip. If you find yourself in a confrontational situation , a) Don't talk tough,b) maintain eye contact with any would-be foe,c) continue with a and b as you slowly extracate yourself from the situation-without showing fear.

Actually, this reminds me of a verse I once read in Proverbs which said something to the effect that the wrath of man never attains the righteousness of God. Immediatly after that, I was then confronted by someone attacking me verbally. I then hearkened back to what I had just read, and held my tongue. Oh the agony!! However, I am glad I did so in retrospect. As a result of me not "getting in the flesh" so to speak, everything ended up working out OK. Of course, its the times that things don't work out OK that are the hardest to swallow. However, not taking the proper approach by fighting fire with fire insures that things will not work out well.

Originally posted by whodey
Actually, this reminds me of a verse I once read in Proverbs which said something to the effect that the wrath of man never attains the righteousness of God. Immediatly after that, I was then confronted by someone attacking me verbally. I then hearkened back to what I had just read, and held my tongue. Oh the agony!! However, I am glad I did so in retrosp ng the proper approach by fighting fire with fire insures that things will not work out well.

Exactly!
I would make the following,(generlized and open to revision), proposal on my idea of "justified" physical violence.
1. When protecting your family.
2. When someone ,(usually male), who is at least 35 years old, repeatedly "assaults" his own wife and children , who has been warned several times that his actions are doing detrement to his family, and continues to show no signs of change may be physically harmed.
Please note that this a fairly extreme set of circumstances and I have not come across any such persons. (however I have heard about them)
Also bear in mind "physically harmed" could mean slashing his tyres or wrecking some other physical thing. The main point being here that these people don't respond to any verbal gestures and need to be harmed physically for them to get the point.
..Thats the theory anyway...

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Exactly!
I would make the following,(generlized and open to revision), proposal on my idea of "justified" physical violence.
1. When protecting your family.
2. When someone ,(usually male), who is at least 35 years old, repeatedly "assaults" his own wife and children , who has been warned several times that his actions are doing detrement to his nd need to be harmed physically for them to get the point.
..Thats the theory anyway...

You forgot 3 which is chasing money changers out of the temple!!

As a Christian I recognize the fact that avoiding physical violence for the sake of avoiding physical violence is not the issue. Pacifism is not, or should not be, a theological teaching. Otherwise, Christ would not have used it in the temple. The issue is acting on your own behalf and in repsonse to your own anger. When God is left out of the mix, that is when trouble begins. THat is why Christ drove them out of the temple. It was all about doing the Fathers will, which was keeping the one place man and God met holy and uninterrupted. Christ was in tuned with exactly what the Fathers will was and that is the key. If we are in tune with his will, expect surprises like this incident.

Originally posted by whodey
You forgot 3 which is chasing money changers out of the temple!!

As a Christian I recognize the fact that avoiding physical violence for the sake of avoiding physical violence is not the issue. Pacifism is not, or should not be, a theological teaching. Otherwise, Christ would not have used it in the temple. The issue is acting on your own behalf and in ...[text shortened]... was and that is the key. If we are in tune with his will, expect surprises like this incident.

Amen.
And lets pray this holiness spills out of the temple and into the whole world

If you've ever read "Catch 22" and remember the Character '107 year old man'...I'd do as he would do in this situation.

Originally posted by whodey
What you are dscussing are "feelings". However, when Christ said to love those who persecute you and despitefully use you, how is what you say relavent to the discussion at hand? I think we are once again misusing the term love to cover a variety of expressions. The type I am talking about is agape. Again, the example of the Good Samaritan is an example. ...[text shortened]... act, there was never even a word spoken between them. Where then is the emotional connection?

I don't speak Greek, so I don't know exactly what agape means in Greek. However, I would not use the word 'love' unless some form of emotion is involved. How do you define 'agape'? Can you explain it a bit further? Is it devoid of emotion?

I fully realize that the Samaritan may have had good reasons for disliking Jews, but that is not evidence that he did. He may have had positive emotions regarding all people.

Originally posted by whodey
Having said that, at the same token I'm sure I'm taken the wrong way at times because I think it more important to speak the truth than it is trying not to offend people.

And my point earlier in the thread was that it seemed to be more important for you to 'keep face' than to admit to an error. I consider that dishonesty.

Originally posted by twhitehead
[b]I don't speak Greek, so I don't know exactly what agape means in Greek. However, I would not use the word 'love' unless some form of emotion is involved. How do you define 'agape'? Can you explain it a bit further? Is it devoid of emotion?

I define it as an unconditional selfless love that is focused on the well being of others. This is why it might be referred to as emotionless. There are no preconditions for one to have agape love towards another other than the fact they value them as human beings.

Originally posted by twhitehead

I fully realize that the Samaritan may have had good reasons for disliking Jews, but that is not evidence that he did. He may have had positive emotions regarding all people.[/b]

The point to the parable was that the Samaritan of all people should not have been the one to stop and help the man. How you piece togher what Jesus was getting at here is up to your imagination I suppose.