1. Melbourne, Australia
    Joined
    24 May '10
    Moves
    7680
    29 Apr '12 14:01
    The following words of the Kunjed Gyalpo, fundamental Tantra of Tibetan Dzogchen, are expressed poetically, mythically, as from the Supreme Source (SamantaBhadra) to VajraSattva, the indestructible (Diamond) Being. This Great Indestructable Being is in fact the manifested aspect of the ""Source", the All Complete.
    It is thus, in fact, you and I, or our mind playing out, and also being played out in this great living drama of right now - always right now.. Inexpressible ultimately, mythic poetic Beings are used as a Tantric means, a means different to Sutra paths, yet with the same pointing, showing forth, intention. For some the Buddhist Sutric path helps more, for others the Tantric, and still yet for others both can show light.


    **************
    [Excerpts from the chapter on 'self perfection that transcends seeking' Ch 81]

    "The authentic unaltered state is the true essence of all, and no enlightenment exists apart from the natural condition. 'Enlightenment' is merely a name indicating what is called the 'natural condition', ones own mind: just this very mind, unaltered is dharmakaya. What has never been altered is also what has never been born, and the true "unborn" cannot be sought or realized through effort. That which transcends action is not realized through seeking and commitment..."

    "Listen, great SattvaVajra, ...
    I, the source, pure and total consciousness, am beyond birth and the dualism of subject and object:this is called the unborn 'dharmakaya'. But in reality dharmakaya is merely a name, it is not something other than the natural condition.
    When I, the source, pure and total consciousness, manifest my nature, this is called sambhogakaya, but this too is only a name in reality, it is not something other than the natural condition.
    When I, the source, pure and total consciousness, manifest my energy potentiality, from the unaltered condition of this energy is said to issue the nirmanakaya, but this too is merely a name: in reality this nirmanakaya is not something other than the natural condition."

    [The three kayas or bodies are three aspects of existence referred to in Buddhism - the Absolute, (Dharmakaya), Body of Enjoyment or the experiential mental field, (Samboghakaya) and the manifested physical body of Being (Nirminakaya). A short description of a complex Buddhist subject, but beyond that, as stated here, it is our natural condition nevertheless.]
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91521
    29 Apr '12 23:351 edit
    Was that intro yours? Just beautiful man!!

    Very true that though, when first introduced to the idea of enlightenment, everyone has a false idea about it. The more adept students into this mystery , by process of elimination, (or on occasion by 'divine insight'πŸ˜‰ , will quickly understand the "natural condition" is not something to be solved with our usual ken, with the normal way we use our brains everyday.
    They find that there is another use for the brain- it is an "antenna" of sorts for connecting us back with our original conditions, (our original natures).

    This is a complete 180* turn from the original position that the object of our search was something outside of us that needed to be found.

    And from this point, (which I take to mean "Liberation"(not sure of buddhist source for word) ), we reach a state where we cannot fall back from. We realize that there is absolutley no fear in death. And we achieve a new happiness in our lives, that although not being enlightened yet, we know that that is the destination of all "souls" and it is just a matter of time before yours too is reinfused with the ONE
  3. Melbourne, Australia
    Joined
    24 May '10
    Moves
    7680
    30 Apr '12 07:341 edit
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Was that intro yours? Just beautiful man!!

    Very true that though, when first introduced to the idea of enlightenment, everyone has a false idea about it. The more adept students into this mystery , by process of elimination, (or on occasion by 'divine insight'πŸ˜‰ , will quickly understand the "natural condition" is not something to be solved with our all "souls" and it is just a matter of time before yours too is reinfused with the ONE
    Thanks Karoly. There are two viewpoints to this thing called enlightenment.
    Firstly, if it is seen as something that RESULTS in one being "finally" in touch with the Great, or Buddha Mind or Absolute, then we are off key, because we are at this moment, already THAT. Nothing to be done, nothing to be appeased, warts and all, we are THAT NOW. So its silly to try and be that which we already are and counterproductive, because the more we try to "find" it, the less likely we are to realize we are already THAT.
    The other aspect of the word "enlightenment" is to do with seeing clearly or waking up to THAT which we already are.

    Lots of analogies are around. Bit like looking for some light, torch or something so we light a match to find it. Or wearing glasses and absent mindedly thinking we have lost them, looking through them all the time, to find where they are which when we come to our senses, have a good laugh at ourselves because we had them on all the time!
  4. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
    19 Jan '04
    Moves
    22131
    30 Apr '12 16:004 edits
    Originally posted by Taoman
    Thanks Karoly. There are two viewpoints to this thing called enlightenment.
    Firstly, if it is seen as something that RESULTS in one being "finally" in touch with the Great, or Buddha Mind or Absolute, then we are off key, because we are at this moment, already THAT. Nothing to be done, nothing to be appeased, warts and all, we are THAT NOW. So its silly to we come to our senses, have a good laugh at ourselves because we had them on all the time!
    Taoman! As always good to read your stuff. Hope you and yours are very well.

    I suspect that our natural condition includes both those times of recognition/realization (“enlightenment”; satori) and the stretches of being “lost” in maya—rather like a child who becomes “lost” in imaginative play, or a student gets “lost” in study. The problem is that we undergo a sort of continuous, long-term, self-reinforcing process of hypnosis (from family, religion, society, general culture), beginning pre-verbally, such that we can no longer re-call or re-member (hyphens deliberate) anything other than a complex net of “lostnesses” that we are continually assured is not lostness at all, but actually our natural condition. The power of the hypnosis (and reinforcing post-hypnotic suggestion) is so pervasive that all that might remain of clarity is a niggling sense of “not all right”—and maybe not even that.

    The nature of the hypnosis is such that, when questioned, our minds will make up any seemingly sensible defense against the notion that it (our particular cultural, religious, etc., version of it) is not the complete and true reality—“seemingly sensible”, though, within that hypnotized state. Analogy: A stage hypnotist hypnotizes a man and implants the post-hypnotic suggestion that whenever the hypnotist says a certain word—say, “frog”—the man will remove his jacket; if the hypnotist says the word again, the man will put his jacket back on; and on and on… And so it goes; but each time the hypnotist asks the man why he took off/put on his jacket—and each time, he gets a seemingly plausible response: “I got hot”, “There was a sudden draft”, “The stage lights are too warm”, “I think they turned up the air conditioner”, etc., etc.

    That is why people who have awakened (at least in part) from the hypnosis, and who choose to teach, devise practices (e.g., meditation) and methods (e.g., koans) for pointing to that—i.e., the underlying condition of clarity (or “emptiness”, or&hellipπŸ˜‰. But there is a danger, more prominent in the east, perhaps, than the west: and that is dualizing between illusion and clarity in such a way that one is deemed “false” and the other “true”; that (strictly nondualist) Kashmir Shaivites charge Shankara with just this error. [I sem to recall you reading The Shiva Sutras.]

    One can operate from a general backdrop of forgetfulness with occasional flashes of clarity; or one can operate from a general backdrop of clarity with occasional rounds of forgetfulness. Our natural existential condition involves the iteration between “lost-and-found”—and “lost-and-found” is just more fun when you can truly allow yourself to become “lost” in the play, but—eliminating the externally imposed hypnosis means that you choose to become “lost”, with the confidence that you’ll eventually “find” your clarity again. The more conscious one is, the more one can freely play in that iteration, with joy and compassion. I might call that the “embracing consciousness” that sees illusion/clarity, maya/satori, as also forming the Gestalt which is the real tathata, from which and in which and of which we are. [I think that what I call “gestaltic nondualism”, a bit redundantly, is akin to what blackbeetle means by moving beyond the (yin/yang) Tai Chi to the Gankyil, to which I might also assign the triad of figure-ground-(inseparable) whole.]

    Am I now lost
    or am I now found?
    Who is doing the losing,
    who is doing the finding?
    O dancing emptiness that I am!
    Let’s go get lost again!

    ________________________________________________

    NOTE: In Zen there is sometimes a (mistaken) debate between advocates of sudden versus gradual “enlightenment”:

    One walks a long time in a heavy mist, suddenly—
    “Hey, I’m soaking wet!”.
    Then long time walking in the sunshine, suddenly—
    “Hey, I’m all dry!”.
  5. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
    Moves
    14509
    01 May '12 05:58
    Originally posted by Taoman
    The following words of the Kunjed Gyalpo, fundamental Tantra of Tibetan Dzogchen, are expressed poetically, mythically, as from the Supreme Source (SamantaBhadra) to VajraSattva, the indestructible (Diamond) Being. This Great Indestructable Being is in fact the manifested aspect of the ""Source", the All Complete.
    It is thus, in fact, you and I, or our mind ...[text shortened]... t, but beyond that, as stated here, it is our natural condition nevertheless.]
    The Source -pure unborness
    😡
  6. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
    Moves
    14509
    01 May '12 06:04
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Taoman! As always good to read your stuff. Hope you and yours are very well.

    I suspect that our natural condition includes [b]both
    those times of recognition/realization (“enlightenment”; satori) and the stretches of being “lost” in maya—rather like a child who becomes “lost” in imaginative play, or a student gets “lost” in study. The ...[text shortened]... Hey, I’m soaking wet!”.
    Then long time walking in the sunshine, suddenly—
    “Hey, I’m all dry!”.[/b]
    So you cultivated the pure Chan profound doubt and you doubt for good all conceptual statements! Now it 's time to stop permanently the conceptual process through focusing on the simultaneous arising and disappearing of thoughts.

    Focus on the modifications of conceptual thinking and see how the simultaneous thinking arises, abides and disappears, evaluate it and recognize what exactly establishes the appearance of simultaneously arising, abiding and disappearing thoughts; then recognize what exactly serves as the cognitive space underlying every moment of your mental activity and allowing for the spontaneous establishment of simultaneously arising, abiding and disappearing thoughts;
    Go, go, go Beyond vistesd
    😡
  7. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
    Moves
    14509
    01 May '12 06:16
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Was that intro yours? Just beautiful man!!

    Very true that though, when first introduced to the idea of enlightenment, everyone has a false idea about it. The more adept students into this mystery , by process of elimination, (or on occasion by 'divine insight'πŸ˜‰ , will quickly understand the "natural condition" is not something to be solved with our ...[text shortened]... all "souls" and it is just a matter of time before yours too is reinfused with the ONE
    Conceptual and nonconceptual mental activity is usually limited by fleeting stains, however an exclusively nonconceptual mental activity devoid of all fleeting stains of obscuration is possible. Free from fleeting stains of obsuration, mental activity is liberated. The exclusively nonconceptual mental activity is the essential nature of being devoid of all stains; one conquers one's liberation when one recognizes (the essential nature of being devoid of all stains as) the basis of each moment of one's cognition
    😡
  8. Melbourne, Australia
    Joined
    24 May '10
    Moves
    7680
    01 May '12 08:512 edits
    Appreciate both discourses, visted and BB.

    Tantric visualisation is a meditative means. It is interesting in the context of the hypnosis analogy. One might see it as a means of upshifting our mental gear to lessen the constant impressions and imputations of our everyday life. This means is helpful to some. But it can also become a hindrance as it replaces one dualistic conceptual set of forms for another.
    I have explored the non-dual Shaivite Tantricism but encountered that hindrance as I found myself remaining in a duality, albeit uplifted. With Dzogchen, and in its principal writings such as the one I have quoted, there is this constant refrain that all this is our own mind, or more correctly Mind.
    The Shaivite tantric forms were highly detailed and symbolic, which for those like me fascinates and expands awareness but for some it leads not to that entering into the Shunyata, empty even of "itself" - words trip over words on this subject. Without concentration or effort, lost in our daily activity, empty of self-thought we are That. But as soon as we start looking or describing it, (Tantric or otherwise) concepts enter. I see it as one among many empty doorway in this case, of a heightened sacred image through to that Indescribable that is closer than hands or feet. Not all can go through the door of verbal abstraction (a very venerable door indeed) straight away, or even at all, thus the proliferation of means.

    I dance between them actually, without a need to settle in either.


    Here is an interesting excerpt on the subject:

    Visualizing Oneself as a Deity"
    In this exercise, we deconstruct our ordinary selves, and then reconstruct ourselves as an enlightened being, with the associated self-esteem, wisdom, compassion, blissful peacefulness, and so forth. We imagine that we are what we wish to become. For instance, we can visualize a buddha, a goddess, or any enlightened deity. We see ourselves as that being, in the center of a mandala, or sacred circle, surrounded by beauty and in the company of other enlightened beings. This is usually done by visualizing the enlightened being in front of us. Lights flow from him or her to us and then the deity merges with us and we take on the deity's attributes. Then we imagine our sacred surroundings.

    Experiencing the Fundamental Nature of our Own Mind
    The fundamental nature of our mind is clear and space-like. Conventional ego mind tries to project other things onto this, but such projections are distorted and momentary. In this type of visualization we can imagine our small ego-centered mind transforming into our clear, non-conceptual mind which expands in every direction and encompasses everything. Then we are everywhere at once; there is no conceptualizing, no-self and other, just pure space/consciousness. We rest in this for a while. Then we can imagine our space-selves solidifying and contracting and we become like a bar of light We have form but no density. Here we are starting to come back to the physical world, but we are different now, because we have experienced the non-dual mind. In some versions of this visualization, we imaging that from this bar of light, we can reemerge into the world as our chosen deity."

    http://www.philadelphiameditation.org/Buddhist_Tantra.html
  9. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
    Moves
    14509
    01 May '12 10:14
    Originally posted by Taoman
    Appreciate both discourses, visted and BB.

    Tantric visualisation is a meditative means. It is interesting in the context of the hypnosis analogy. One might see it as a means of upshifting our mental gear to lessen the constant impressions and imputations of our everyday life. This means is helpful to some. But it can also become a hindrance as it replaces ...[text shortened]... world as our chosen deity."

    http://www.philadelphiameditation.org/Buddhist_Tantra.html
    Oh methinks this excerpt does not work (for me) since mind (mental activities) unveils anyway a subjective holographic reality to the consciousness that perceives it; since it is known that all projections are empty, it is needless to alter a basic projection into another in order to conquer and exploit sunyata. Whatever is perceived by means of the holographic projections is determined by pieces of information encoded strictly on our 6 senses, because this is the sole way for us to conceive both the laws of Physics (and which way they hold), and the way our mental activities generate these projections out of their interaction with the physical world, our inner world and the world of the ideas.

    So, how do you establish the Gateless Gate? You develop mental activity devoid of all fleeting stains of obscuration and you develop nonconceptually the awareness of the clear light (dzogchen way, chan way, it is up to you).
    And how do you go beyond? You follow udana -this is what I heard: when in the 6 senses will be solely what is sensed and in the known solely what is known, you will not be by that and you will not be therein; when you are not therein, you will be neither here, nor there, nor in between and thus dukkha is annihilated.

    It is my knowledge that when one remains solely with one's continuum of one's cognitive process without the sense of ownership of the cognitions, one is liberated
    😡
  10. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
    19 Jan '04
    Moves
    22131
    01 May '12 14:40
    Originally posted by black beetle
    So you cultivated the pure Chan profound doubt and you doubt for good all conceptual statements! Now it 's time to stop permanently the conceptual process through focusing on the simultaneous arising and disappearing of thoughts.

    Focus on the modifications of conceptual thinking and see how the simultaneous thinking arises, abides and disappears, eva ...[text shortened]... nt of simultaneously arising, abiding and disappearing thoughts;
    Go, go, go Beyond vistesd
    😡
    A practice that I am familiar with--but clearly need to deepen, to go beyond. Will be my practice starting...now... πŸ™‚ I bow.
  11. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
    19 Jan '04
    Moves
    22131
    01 May '12 14:551 edit
    Originally posted by Taoman
    Appreciate both discourses, visted and BB.

    Tantric visualisation is a meditative means. It is interesting in the context of the hypnosis analogy. One might see it as a means of upshifting our mental gear to lessen the constant impressions and imputations of our everyday life. This means is helpful to some. But it can also become a hindrance as it replaces world as our chosen deity."

    http://www.philadelphiameditation.org/Buddhist_Tantra.html
    Because I see our natural condition in process terms, more than substance terms, I think (agreeing with you) that imagination can be engaged as part of what I called the iteration. Again, my only caveat is that clear-mind is not of itself our natural condition, but also the engaging-imagination mind, for example. And, also again, the usual emphasis in the west is on the apparent manyness (figures/forms), and that is what needs deconstructing via mediation; but the one-sidedness can go the opposite way: too much one-ness (ground). The Gestalt includes both, is the iterating dance of both.

    Shiva-shakti-spanda
    spanda-shakti-shiva

    Dancer-dancing-dance
    dance-dancing-dancer

    Or: visualizer-visualizing-visualization πŸ™‚

    You’re right about the complexity-behind-the-unity of the Shiva Sutras (and the Spanda Karikas); I believe that they are both meant to be read progressively, such that, if one does not awaken with the first verse, one keeps going—if one does awaken, then one realizes one is Shiva, and no need for further reading. I tend to either just devour them on first run, though, and then meander here and there looking for gems… Not the strategy I think they were composed for, but I want to look again…

    I especially like your first meditation here, but…

    …Blackbeetle nailed me like a good Zen master, and I must reinvigorate the practice he recommends as primary now…

    As always… I bow.
  12. Melbourne, Australia
    Joined
    24 May '10
    Moves
    7680
    01 May '12 15:18
    Originally posted by black beetle
    Oh methinks this excerpt does not work (for me) since mind (mental activities) unveils anyway a subjective holographic reality to the consciousness that perceives it; since it is known that all projections are empty, it is needless to alter a basic projection into another in order to conquer and exploit sunyata. Whatever is perceived by means of the hol ...[text shortened]... ne's cognitive process without the sense of ownership of the cognitions, one is liberated
    😡
    All projections are empty. If there was one statement you have struck me most with in past posts and here, is this one. Ït cuts like a sword. And it is without argument. Whether it be the verbal (sutric) or the imaginal (tantric), they appear both to be an extension of the most primary projection, summated in; "We cannot speak of it, and yet we must".
    Your words (and mine) are a projection so either we must shut up, or continue sir, which is it?
  13. Melbourne, Australia
    Joined
    24 May '10
    Moves
    7680
    01 May '12 15:45
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Because I see our natural condition in process terms, more than substance terms, I think (agreeing with you) that imagination can be engaged as part of what I called the iteration. Again, my only caveat is that clear-mind is not of itself our natural condition, but also the engaging-imagination mind, for example. And, also again, the usual emphasis in the ...[text shortened]... master, and I must reinvigorate the practice he recommends as primary now…

    As always… I bow.
    "The Gestalt includes both, is the iterating dance of both".
    Yes, very good.
    My mind remembers the dance with Shiva - myself - Shiva -- myself... whirling around, as the Acharya encouraged to look in a mirror steadily, a sadhana.
    Its in the movement, the aliveness, in the movement between words and images the ever morphing gestalt forms. I found when I stop the dance of mind, settling too long with either words or image, one can fall into identifying too much with verbal or imaginal projection.
    The gestalt happens between the hard edges of existence and the potent emptiness of non-existence, in the whirl of the dance between projection and simply being - the zen moment.

    Thank you for your rich evocative post.
  14. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
    Moves
    14509
    01 May '12 16:32
    Originally posted by Taoman
    All projections are empty. If there was one statement you have struck me most with in past posts and here, is this one. Ït cuts like a sword. And it is without argument. Whether it be the verbal (sutric) or the imaginal (tantric), they appear both to be an extension of the most primary projection, summated in; "We cannot speak of it, and yet we must".
    Your words (and mine) are a projection so either we must shut up, or continue sir, which is it?
    Since the fleeting emotional and cognitive obscurations of mind are not the defining characteristic of the (pure) mental activity, mind’s absolute nature is emptiness. A universal mind that envelops all the individual minds of all the sentient beings and it can somehow be accessed by us, is turtle-hair. Our individual mindstreams merging with a universal mind when we are mu, is rabbit’s horn.

    To say that a universal mind envelops all the individual minds of all the sentient beings and it can somehow be accessed by us, is not tenable.
    To say that our individual mindstreams merge with a universal mind, is not tenable. To assert either one or the other, is unawareness: clear light is neither independent from the body nor self-sufficiently knowable on its own.

    So, first get to know clear light and then proceed
    😡
  15. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
    19 Jan '04
    Moves
    22131
    01 May '12 16:33
    Originally posted by Taoman
    "The Gestalt includes both, is the iterating dance of both".
    Yes, very good.
    My mind remembers the dance with Shiva - myself - Shiva -- myself... whirling around, as the Acharya encouraged to look in a mirror steadily, a sadhana.
    Its in the movement, the aliveness, in the movement between words and images the ever morphing gestalt forms. I found when I s ...[text shortened]... tween projection and simply being - the zen moment.

    Thank you for your rich evocative post.
    And you for yours. These are wonderful exchanges without any “competition”. What is effective means, or effective insights, for one person, at one time, is not so for another person—or the same person at a different time. Nevertheless, we trigger insights in one another that adds to the storehouse.
Back to Top