Your Natural Condition

Originally posted by Taoman
Your words are clear and edifying, I do not dispute that fine statement. I think you give your own answer to "..natural condition of what?.. later using the same words that express it better than I would.
My principal point I am seeking to get at, I think, 🙂 is about the means of imagination and the means of words, and that words are still a hook for our id ...[text shortened]... /www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/eye_of_the_storm_excerpts.htm#The_Cuckoos_Song_of_Gnosis_

Edit: "I think you acknowledge the means fit the individuality but I also think you state more than that... something like - 'my means is better than that means' ???"

No, my chan is not "better" than the dzogchen/ tantra, Taoist or Christian or Sufi way etc; but my tendencies and my inclinations herenow make chan feel like coming home. It 's only me, it isn 't any kind of absolute truth. Another individual can well feel with his own "way" as comfortably as I feel with mine.


The earliest dzogchen tantra is one of my favourites too🙂
😵

Originally posted by Taoman
Your words are clear and edifying, I do not dispute that fine statement. I think you give your own answer to "..natural condition of what?.. later using the same words that express it better than I would.
My principal point I am seeking to get at, I think, 🙂 is about the means of imagination and the means of words, and that words are still a hook for our id ...[text shortened]... /www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/eye_of_the_storm_excerpts.htm#The_Cuckoos_Song_of_Gnosis_

Edit: "My principal point I am seeking to get at, I think, is about the means of imagination and the means of words, and that words are still a hook for our ideations."

Then let's see how dzogchen tantra goes effectively beyond words:
In dzogchen, gzhi is considered the real expression (the primordial abiding mode) of Mind/ mental activities. Gzhi is endowed with an empty essence. The empty essence of the natural state is primordially pure, its nature is understood as spontaneously accomplished and its all-embracing compassion aspect as endowed with a discerning awareness. This awareness is the non-discursive knowledge of the natural state itself; through the experience of this same awareness, ghzi of one's mind/ mental activities is known in its real expression.

Thus I have heard: man gives rise to the Buddhas, Buddhas do not give rise to men. Yes; gzhi of the natural state is the arising basis of both the realized Buddhas and of the deluded beings, so if one recognizes the real (natural) mode of being one becomes Buddha, and if one fails to recognize this nature one cannot be liberated from the conditioned existence. So, Mind alone is the ground of Liberation and Mind alone is the ground of Delusion.

Mind, according to dzogchen tantra, is endowed with an inherent profound clarity transmitted spontaneously as a natural dynamism arising as the display of three kinds of the primordial manifestations (sounds, lights and rays). When the nature of these manifestations is recognized as the visionary expression of One's Own Dynamism, one attains Buddhahood. Ignorance of the nature of these displays triggers delusion, and then one cannot be liberated from the conditioned states of existence. The recognition or non-recognition of this state does not affect gzhi, and this is the reason why it is said that natural state remains eternal, immutable and undifferentiated. One’s knowledge of gzhi, hence one’s awareness, is liable to fluctuate according to the individual. So awareness can turn into non-awareness/ ignorance when one fails to recognize the visions of the natural state.
Too sharp🙂


Chan is also sharp: instead of receiving words, within that system you would be forced to do your chores and, at a given time, you would be forced to evaluate the noise of the growing fingers of a baby.
Both systems relate on Context; Buddha smelled the flower and just smiled😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Edit: "My principal point I am seeking to get at, I think, is about the means of imagination and the means of words, and that words are still a hook for our ideations."

Then let's see how dzogchen tantra goes effectively beyond words:
In dzogchen, gzhi is considered the real expression (the primordial abiding mode) of Mind/ mental activities. Gzhi i ers of a baby.
Both systems relate on Context; Buddha smelled the flower and just smiled😵

I did not really think you thought "better than" in comparative mode, but sometimes it feels like it. I shall put it down to my "reading into". I retract anything of the sort.
Words..
Another clear and precise statement. I remind myself that Chan has its sutras too, though some with burnt edges I expect, as masters had a tendency sometimes to use them for fuel! As well as Buddha statues.
Please tolerate my persistence. I do find your responses most advancing in the midst of the dialectic. Btw, the link and it's article is a plough but furthering as to Longchempa's context and antecedents, and also as to the influence of the pre-Tibetan Mahayoga "Secret Essence". I will plough on with it. One needs a reminder that Longchempa was one amongst many bright lights. I unfortunately tend to apotheosis at times. Impulsiveness is a family trait.

But beyond that, Kieth Dowman in his translation and commentary on Longchempa's Treasury of Natural Perfection gave me a grand filip on the issue of the immediate duality of striving for any spiritual goal. At risk of a somewhat lengthy post, Dowman writes...

"... Striving in any kind (*he mentions prior -,karma, rebirth, guru-relationship, degree of meditation, facility in visualization ) of preparatory endeavour is an excerise in shooting oneself in the foot, ar at least running after a mirage. In fact, to reach the point of relaxation in the moment that provides intimation of gnosis, non-action is the sole precept...Recognition of our lived experience, just as it is, in its miraculous immediacy and beauty, without any yen for change, is the praxis of radical Dzogchen, and belief in personal development, and improvement, progress towards a social ideal, moral evolution of the species, and so on, is deviation from the pure pleasure of the unthought timeless moment."
(p.xxi) ""Old Man Basking in the Sun - Longchempas Treasury of Natural Perfection"

Now this leaves me suspended conceptually between non-doing, non-striving, non-practicing (apart from simply relaxing and openness,) and the "questing" of recognition that liberates from the conditional, which you yourself summarise.
He further on discusses (without resolution) the difficulties of acceptance of such views both in traditional Tibetan and Western societies.

I find Dowman's point - translating Longchempa - a powerful one and I would appreciate your thoughts on it.

[Edits typographical]

Emptiness projecting onto emptiness.
All movement,
process, no processor,
ultimately.

Dynamic movement, without
that which moves,
or is moved.

Where is that electron?

Not a thing unto itself.
Yet all is so alive!

How marvellous!

Originally posted by Taoman
I did not really think you thought "better than" in comparative mode, but sometimes it feels like it. I shall put it down to my "reading into". I retract anything of the sort.
Words..
Another clear and precise statement. I remind myself that Chan has its sutras too, though some with burnt edges I expect, as masters had a tendency sometimes to use them for ...[text shortened]... werful one and I would appreciate your thoughts on it.

[Edits typographical]

Edit: “Another clear and precise statement. I remind myself that Chan has its sutras too, though some with burnt edges I expect, as masters had a tendency sometimes to use them for fuel! As well as Buddha statues.”

They have specific Context, yes. The sutras are studied to the hilt, but the hard work starts as regards the contemplation. Each sutra is a puzzle on its own; the disciple gathers in his mind the sutras as if they were the pieces of a huge hologram; the more he absorbs, the more his under construction Palace of Knowledge seems chaotic, because each sutra describes a specific epistemic object under a specific angle in specific conditions, hence the evaluation of the mind is necessary. The more the disciple heads towards his hologram, the more it changes shape because all these projections and perspectives must be evaluated by constantly evolving mental activities that must be grounded on a specific substratum and a specific modification of the mind. As long as you fail to find on your own a specific point of attention, a point of attention that is inseparable from your own mind but it cannot be found because your mind is obscured from specific fleeting emotional and mental obscurities, you will fail to establish full theasis of your Palace. Your chances to build it without theasis are similar to the chances a three months old baby has to build on its own and out of its fantasy alone the Burj al Arab.
A master is a person whose Palace of Knowledge is built by him, a person that has the power to give the disciples to understand what exact part of the Palace has to be found, how it can be joined perfectly with all the other parts and how the construction must be done. Each Palace of Knowledge is unique but all are made of the same stuff, and each Palace has to be concrete. Each Palace is empty. The master will cause you Pain when you are stranded -and the disciple receives Pain as an indication of utmost Compassion.
Meanwhile, constant physical and mental training is used so that the disciples endure meditation and overcome The Absolute Opponent: their own self clinging on states of thinking and being that do not hold. However, the master and the disciple do know that It can be also transferred seemingly on its own, as it is proved by the sixth patriarch. It can be transferred seemingly on its own just as it was transferred from Buddha to Mahakashyapa. Context is unavoidable. In Chan, the disciple smiles faintly. In dzogchen, he is training in order to control in full his next transmittance;


Edit: “Btw... ... Impulsiveness is a family trait."

Impulsiveness is OK. Longchempa is one amongst many, yes. His Palace of Knowledge is superb but there are many superb Palaces;


Edit: “But beyond… …Perfection"

I agree. This is exactly what Chan does with Taia’s Sword/ evaluation of the mind: mu. See on your own a nirmanakaya Taia’s Sword at the fifth book of Gorinsho;


Edit: “Now this leaves me suspended conceptually between non-doing, non-striving, non-practicing (apart from simply relaxing and openness,) and the "questing" of recognition that liberates from the conditional, which you yourself summarise.”

I will answer by means of two angles.
For one: methinks one has to stick to a single system until one masters it in full before studying another, particularly when one enters Tibetan Buddhism and Zen systems. The various traditions use the same and/ or almost the same terms, but from different perspectives (from the perspective of the meditative equipage, or from the perspective of the postmeditation, or from the perspective of the Way, or from the perspective of a non enlightened man or from the perspective of a Buddha or an arahant). In dzogchen, they make a distinction between the relative and the ultimate that evokes the ultimate as it is phenomenologically known in meditative practice under specific conditions. Non-doing/ sitting quietly refers to the meditative practice, not to the everyday practice out of the realm of the meditative practice. When a car speeds up towards your kid, you simply cannot sit quietly and do nothing.
For two: if deep down, at the level of Two Truths, you are conceptually suspended, you are still trapped in clinging. Hopefully you can see there is no liberation from the conditional and there is no liberation from the non-conditional because there is nothing to be liberated. Do your chores, do balance on Two Truths and see your mountains becoming mountains at last;


Edit: “I find Dowman's point - translating Longchempa - a powerful one and I would appreciate your thoughts on it.”

Methinks Dowman is extremely accurate and he has his work perfectly edited by Longchempa’s too advanced apepts
😵

Originally posted by Taoman
Emptiness projecting onto emptiness.
All movement,
process, no processor,
ultimately.

Dynamic movement, without
that which moves,
or is moved.

Where is that electron?

Not a thing unto itself.
Yet all is so alive!

How marvellous!

It 's the Generator😵

I reckon a lot of christians think that their natural condition is sinful - because thats what they have been told.
But this Natural Condition that Taoman speaks of is a completely different to the christian ideas about "natural condition" , whether they be good or bad.
I think the fact that his OP got a thumbs down reflects this low brow, non particapatory , generally offensive attitude that accompanies most christians when they 'must' discuss another religion. How different the attitudes of the well mannered buddhist, hindu and tao exponents are.
When I met a genuine Tibetan monk he had as much desire to know everything about the part of the world he was in and all that went with it , including christianity, as he did about teaching his version of reality- which is what he came for- there was enough demand - the people conjured him up -lol

Originally posted by black beetle
Edit: “Another clear and precise statement. I remind myself that Chan has its sutras too, though some with burnt edges I expect, as masters had a tendency sometimes to use them for fuel! As well as Buddha statues.”

They have specific Context, yes. The sutras are studied to the hilt, but the hard work starts as regards the contemplation. Each sutra is ...[text shortened]... emely accurate and he has his work perfectly edited by Longchempa’s too advanced apepts
😵

Thank you again BB and your kind effort of responses. I will explore again the Five Rings more closely than I have previously.

The mountains are mountains, and teachers, sutras and images were ever helpful. I ask what of others, in the conditioned world, with faint or absent interest of such, and their liberation of not needing liberation, of how they realize the path of no-path. But then there is no final self to be liberated and looking too hard solidifies the illusion! Ah, life would be unendingly, statically dead without the Infinite Mystery.

Is it a form of clinging, a sort of vestige of a pointless wanting to know how? I suspect more it is ever-arising wonderment of the "Way". Our natural condition.

Its the Path of No-Path, I keep looking down to find it, where it was and came from, where its going to, and as soon as I look it goes. Suspended.

Like the iron cow calving atop a 100 ft pole.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I reckon a lot of christians think that their natural condition is sinful - because thats what they have been told.
But this Natural Condition that Taoman speaks of is a completely different to the christian ideas about "natural condition" , whether they be good or bad.
I think the fact that his OP got a thumbs down reflects this low brow, non parti ...[text shortened]... ality- which is what he came for- there was enough demand - the people conjured him up -lol

Ssssh!
Disrespect and disrespect are found wherever humans gather. Monks squabble sometimes in Buddhist monasteries. ( Not a lot 🙂 )
Perhaps they (of varying colours) are respecting our space for a change, mate. Which I, for one, appreciate and don't mind at all. I have refrained deliberately for some time from entering 'their patch', just for peace.
Let's not interpret any low response rates negatively, its not a counting competition. A few well edifying responses, rather than many clashing swords is far more advancing, don't you reckon?

Originally posted by Taoman
Thank you again BB and your kind effort of responses. I will explore again the Five Rings more closely than I have previously.

The mountains are mountains, and teachers, sutras and images were ever helpful. I ask what of others, in the conditioned world, with faint or absent interest of such, and their liberation of not needing liberation, of how they rea ...[text shortened]... o, and as soon as I look it goes. Suspended.

Like the iron cow calving atop a 100 ft pole.

Edit: "I ask what of others, in the conditioned world, with faint or absent interest of such, and their liberation of not needing liberation, of how they realize the path of no-path."

I have my Palace in the water but all they see is a wave😵

Originally posted by Taoman
Ssssh!
Disrespect and disrespect are found wherever humans gather. Monks squabble sometimes in Buddhist monasteries. ( Not a lot 🙂 )
Perhaps they (of varying colours) are respecting our space for a change, mate. Which I, for one, appreciate and don't mind at all. I have refrained deliberately for some time from entering 'their patch', just for peace.
L ...[text shortened]... ifying responses, rather than many clashing swords is far more advancing, don't you reckon?

Yup!! You have that summed up just fine.

It's that you seem to find it a bit more when they are gathered around a spirituality discussion than any other 🙂

Originally posted by Taoman
The following words of the Kunjed Gyalpo, fundamental Tantra of Tibetan Dzogchen, are expressed poetically, mythically, as from the Supreme Source (SamantaBhadra) to VajraSattva, the indestructible (Diamond) Being. This Great Indestructable Being is in fact the manifested aspect of the ""Source", the All Complete.
It is thus, in fact, you and I, or our mind ...[text shortened]... t, but beyond that, as stated here, it is our natural condition nevertheless.]

Taoman, Black Beetle, karoly aczel, vistesd. I bow to all of you. Pure reason untainted by emotion. Thank you.

An old silent pond...
A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

Originally posted by Pianoman1
Taoman, Black Beetle, karoly aczel, vistesd. I bow to all of you. Pure reason untainted by emotion. Thank you.

An old silent pond...
A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

The buttterfly
at the steeple
get off to sleep

Namaste
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
The buttterfly
at the steeple
get off to sleep

Namaste
😵

🙂

A question......

When i play a concert, interpreting the music of Bach, Mozart or Beethoven, who is doing the interpreting? When Glenn Gould interprets Bach, who is playing?

When I practise za-zen at the piano, who is playing?

Namaste

Originally posted by black beetle
Edit: "I ask what of others, in the conditioned world, with faint or absent interest of such, and their liberation of not needing liberation, of how they realize the path of no-path."

I have my Palace in the water but all they see is a wave😵

😵

Thus it is.

Play cant go on
with half the stage
missing.