Your tooth fairy not mine

@kellyjay said
No, I do not believe conflict or evil are necessary, good does not require evil to exist, but evil is only a deviation of good, and people can live in harmony without conflict it is desired and the "ought to" in human life. Not science-minded people, just people who look at life and put power before what should be as the driving morals of life, power, sex, money, and status ...[text shortened]... d loses his soul? Faith, hope, and love I believe are far better than power, sex, money, and status.

It's a dull life, when we are all good. In heaven we are all good, and that's why we come into the physical world, to sharpen our senses.

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

@fmf said
If the universe does not have consciousness, then how can it bestow on mankind something which it does not possess?

On what basis would you assume that consciousness must have been "bestowed" by something that has consciousness?

Clearly, on a basis which you are not conscious of, apparently!

@kellyjay said
In religious circles that is called reincarnation, so nothing new here, science picks up another religious narrative, slaps new jargon on the idea and call science.

That's where I was going with "Consciousness."

What are your own thoughts on reincarnation, both as a Christian, and also as an independent thinker?

@pettytalk said
Your argument would have some justice in it, if you compared apples with apples, and not with oranges. The religious 6,000 years old earth thinkers should be compared with old science thinkers. Old science held that the earth was immovable and at the center of the universe. A flat earth was also widely accepted by the "science" of those early years, when man was just learni ...[text shortened]... of his mouth. I also suspect He will use it to, rigorously, cut out both, religion and science. Duh!

People have all kinds of views in every walk of life, you want to talk about how old the earth is, do you know? Many theories abound, which are right because the actual age is set in reality, so we speculate coming up with our best guesses, theories, and hypotheses, if there were a start date, it is fixed, can we know it?

Some may be closer to the truth than others, do you know? Do you know how it started and why, without that knowledge exactly what do you base your knowledge on? If it started with everything in place, all the stars and planets in their respective orbits and expanding, instead of a singular event like the big bang from a singularity, would that screw up all of our calculations?

What exactly do you think I need to update my thinking to match our times, please be specific and tell me how you came to believe I'm wrong. As I said I don't believe science and religion are at odds, they just look at things from different perspectives, and anything true, will be true in both. Worldview conflict has the start of the universe spring up quite differently, it isn't science versus faith, you require faith to even do science. You have to believe the universe is mathematically intelligible and our minds can tune into it and understand it, without that what would be the point?

@pettytalk said
That's where I was going with "Consciousness."

What are your own thoughts on reincarnation, both as a Christian, and also as an independent thinker?

I don't believe in reincarnation, as a Christian I believe there is an appointed a time for each of us to die and judgment. I don't fear judgment, not because I am worthy, but because of what Jesus did.

@bigdogg said
I think religion is, at the core, much more about personal truth - i.e. "what is my purpose?" - than it is about objective facts about the physical world.

As has been pointed out by others in this forum, many people tend to argue that 'you ought to believe as I do based on [x, y, z arguments]' but they themselves didn't find belief that way. They had a powerful, personal e ...[text shortened]... at led them to belief.

So I am not at all certain that religion and science share the same truth.

Religion, if the very first verse of the Bible is true, objective truth will also be part of reality as well. If the first verse is true then all the other verses are possible as well.

@kellyjay said
I don't believe in reincarnation, as a Christian I believe there is an appointed a time for each of us to die and judgment. I don't fear judgment, not because I am worthy, but because of what Jesus did.

It's not a "get-out-of-jail-free" card.

More like a work-release program.

@suzianne said
It's not a "get-out-of-jail-free" card.

More like a work-release program.

We are given it freely for those who put their faith in His blood, scripture is quite clear, works don't add to our salvation, they can even diminish our faith becoming legalistic, and making us feel we have to add to what Jesus did.

@pettytalk said
Your argument would have some justice in it, if you compared apples with apples, and not with oranges. The religious 6,000 years old earth thinkers should be compared with old science thinkers.

If that's all you want, that is easy. Science moved on, while there are still people today, including people in my own family, that believe the earth is 6000 years old!

@pettytalk said
It's a dull life, when we are all good. In heaven we are all good, and that's why we come into the physical world, to sharpen our senses.

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Think about this, God gave us eyes to see the world and all the beauty in it, taste buds to enjoy all our favorite foods, ears for music and all the sounds we enjoy, feelings so touching, caressing are enjoyable, minds for learning and contemplating things, and even in all of our imaginations God says it hasn’t entered into our hearts what He has prepared for us. Joy and pleasure without guilt shame or regret due to righteousness and holiness, it will be more than hanging around on white clouds singing hymns.

@kellyjay said
Religion and science look at things differently, but what I said is still correct. With science as Dr. Lennox points out goes into the details about the Ford engine in a car, science's approach looks into mechanical engineering, thermal dynamics, and the overall physics of the processes alone, but Henry Ford also is a part of why a Ford engine that exists which is agency. ...[text shortened]... we know about the processes, what it does, and why, the more we can appreciate any agency involved.

This example favors my view, not yours.

If someone asks, "how does a car work?" they want the science answer. Sparks fire, burning gasoline, causing pistons to pump, axles to turn, and wheels to move.

If someone asks, "how does a car come to be designed?" then they want something different - probably a history of attempts to design cars.

There is no 'both answers are correct' here. What there is is listening carefully to the desired topic of conversation, so you can better engage it in context, with the appropriate mental tools.

@pettytalk said
Clearly, on a basis which you are not conscious of, apparently!

There is an interesting issue behind the question I asked you. It is a pity you have opted to sidestep it.

@bigdogg said
This example favors my view, not yours.

If someone asks, "how does a car work?" they want the science answer. Sparks fire, burning gasoline, causing pistons to pump, axles to turn, and wheels to move.

If someone asks, "how does a car come to be designed?" then they want something different - probably a history of attempts to design cars.

There is no 'both answers are ...[text shortened]... ed topic of conversation, so you can better engage it in context, with the appropriate mental tools.

As I said agency and mechanism are not in conflict with the other. They answer different questions, how to change the oil is not saying Henry Ford’s name, teaching basic electronics is not done reading Romans. Different topics require one, or the other, and some topics both.

@kellyjay said
As I said agency and mechanism are not in conflict with the other. They answer different questions, how to change the oil is not saying Henry Ford’s name, teaching basic electronics is not done reading Romans. Different topics require one, or the other, and some topics both.

So you are pressing ahead with the idea that your Henry Ford analogy is evidence that the God you perceive exists?