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Originally posted by @fmfBut Christians get "saved" even if they continue "sinning".
But Christians get "saved" even if they continue "sinning". They don't get tossed into 'the lake of fire'. People who are not Christians - people who "do not let Jesus in" (as the OP put it) do get tossed into 'the lake of fire'. They are not "saved" from that punishment/revenge. So the last line of divegeester's OP dialogue stands, clearly.
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You should know what my answer is to this objection by now.
I have written many times:
There is something that the forgiven sinner gets,
and there is something that no forgiven sinner will ever get.
1.) The forgiven sinner gets to be seen by God as justified and having never sinned at all.
2.) Now for what no justified person will never[edited] get. No forgiven person gets to remain the same kind of person he forever, as when he sinned.
These two realities are mutually exclusive. Though it may appear sometimes to us that they are not. They are.
"I'm forgiven now. I can continue to live my life just as before. I got a ticket - Admit One. All my problem is solved forever. "
I may procrastinate. I may postpone. I may leave work on me by the Holy Spirit incomplete at the time I die. But I cannot remain the same as I was.
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Christ is able to save the the UTTERMOST those who come forward to God through Him.
It may be that before eternity begins God will give you some more incentive to come forward to Him for this sanctification, this transformation, this conformation into the image of the Firstborn Son.
And all the details of that incentive and its timing may not be ours to know at this time.
They don't get tossed into 'the lake of fire'. People who are not Christians - people who "do not let Jesus in" (as the OP put it) do get tossed into 'the lake of fire'. They are not "saved" from that punishment/revenge. So the last line of divegeester's OP dialogue stands, clearly.
This is the suspicion that God cannot be absolute and competent.
Ie. If God is so absolute that whoever's name is not in the book of life is cast into a lake of fire, then it has to follow, it must follow that God is incompetent and unjust, unfair, even wrong, having erred, having been unrighteous, having flunked in the position of being the Most High and the Almighty.
I have settled it in my heart that absoluteness and righteousness are not mutually exclusive with God. With God there is absoluteness and total absence of unrighteousness.
Some expect that at the last judgment they will be at the "complaint department" if such a thing existed. I expect to be surprised and shocked at the absolute rightness of God's judgments.
I admit that the details of all things, I do not now possess. But I expect to be shocked at His omniscience. No factor will escape His understanding. Yet still He is absolute.
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Does it matter to be reconciled to God?
Regardless of the consquences, does it matter?
My reading of the Bible, which is not always easy to understand, is that it teaches that it matters to be reconciled to God.
Ie. It is not first:
I should be reconciled to God so that I won't be punished negatively.
Rather I think the Bible informs me:
I should be reconciled to God PERIOD .
He is God.
It is not communicated supremely to me:
"I should be reconciled to God because the lake of fire will hurt."
Rather the thought comes to me:
" I should be reconciled to God PERIOD . It is of utmost importance that I be reconciled to God. He is God."
Perhaps this is the reason why sometimes it sounds like circular logic in the contemplation of "Why does Jesus come to save us?"
It sounds like He comes to save us from not being saved.
I sympathize somewhat with the perplexity of this kind of question.
Sometimes I think the Bible is written that we may see that it matters in principle that we be reconciled to God whatever the consequences.
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In this waffling post (as some love to say), I will (without reference to verses) explain why the Bible makes sense of life.
1.) First human freedom makes sense to me. It appears to me that I can choose.
2.) God's absoluteness makes sense to me. There is a rightness beyond which no higher rightness is possible.
These two factors make sense to me.
3.) The temporary existence of a grand enemy of God makes sense to me.
Given the two above factors - human freedom of will and God's absolute rightness, it makes sense that rather than deal will billions of individual rebellions God would design a way to have one grand repository into which ALL rebellion could be subsumed.
That is, God knowing that creature freedom might lead to choosing another will besides the will of His own perfect Being, God allowed a grand reservoir to act as the ultimate leader of ALL such revolt.
This one was perfect in creation and took the lead to revolt. Into this ones all-encompassing grand revolt God would arrange for any and all lesser revolts to be subsumed into.
It makes sense to me that before creation of anything, God in His infinite wisdom knew free will could lead to rebellion. So over the eons of time He allowed a top leading creation to take the lead to do so.
All other rebellion is subsumed under this ones grand repository to contain all revolt of any created being of God.
4.) It makes sense to me that after such an operation ALL beings untouched by Satan's revolt or SAVED from it through God's salvation, would nor eternity be one with God.
They are not robots programmed for obedience. But they are drawn by the magnetic attraction of His love so as to be in harmony with the Ultimate forever and ever.
These things make sense to me.
Originally posted by @sonshipIf you're now saying that a "saved" Christian ~ "saved" by their faith in Jesus ~ can be 'unsaved' because they continue to "sin", then I receive this bit of theology with interest,
[b] But Christians get "saved" even if they continue "sinning".
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You should know what my answer is to this objection by now.
I have written many times:
There is something that the forgiven sinner gets,
and there is something that no forgiven sinner will ever get ...[text shortened]... rk on me by the Holy Spirit incomplete at the time I die. But I cannot remain the same as I was.[/b]
Originally posted by @sonshipWhy not address the OP specifically rather than lecture the community?
Does it matter to be reconciled to God?
Regardless of the consquences, does it matter?
My reading of the Bible, which is not always easy to understand, is that it teaches that it matters to be reconciled to God.
Ie. It is not first:
I should be reconciled to God so that I won't be punished negatively.
Rather I think the Bible informs me:
I sho ...[text shortened]... we may see that it matters in principle that we be reconciled to God whatever the consequences.
Originally posted by @sonshipMore kitchen-and-sink-included spam-lecturing addressed to no one in particular, and - for all intents and purposes - dodging the OP.
In this waffling post (as some love to say), I will (without reference to verses) explain why the Bible makes sense of life.
1.) First human freedom makes sense to me. It appears to me that I can choose.
2.) God's absoluteness makes sense to me. There is a rightness beyond which no higher rightness is possible.
These two factors make sense to me ...[text shortened]... ve so as to be in harmony with the Ultimate forever and ever.
These things make sense to me.
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Originally posted by @fmf
If you're now saying that a "saved" Christian ~ "saved" by their faith in Jesus ~ can be 'unsaved' because they continue to "sin", then I receive this bit of theology with interest,
then I receive this bit of theology with interest,
Right.
You don't receive diddly - sqwat!
Who do you think you're fooling?
Besides I didn't say what you think I said.
Originally posted by @sonshipYou are so evasive. If you just want to lecture people in a self-important way do it on a blog. This OP has drawn attention to something incoherent about your torturer god ideology: you seem set on filibustering your way out of it ~ rather than debating it or discussing it..
Does that ever have an interested and objective sound to it.
Anybody who wants to talk to this guy give him an answer.
Originally posted by @fmfThe man is an arrogant deceitful false teacher that leads gullible fools to their doom.
You are so evasive. If you just want to lecture people in a self-important way do it on a blog. This OP has drawn attention to something incoherent about your torturer god ideology: you seem set on filibustering your way out of it ~ rather than debating it or discussing it..
Christ is in his mouth but far from his heart.