Originally posted by darvlayTrevor Hoffman, maybe.
Who, playing in the MLB right now, are locks for the hall of fame when they retire?
Here's who I'm thinking:
Derek Jeter
Alex Rodriguez
Manny Ramirez
Ken Griffey Jr.
Ichiro Suzuki
Mariano Rivera
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
On the bubble:
Ivan Rodriguez
Am I missing anyone?
Originally posted by no1marauderi knew it was high but 22 is very good, ill give you that.. ill put him in my considerations 🙂
One post season hit of consequence v. Bernie's 22 HRs (the most ever by a player) has to factor in a bit, too. Also that Bernie holds the records for RBIs and extra base hits in post season play.
Bernie's offensive numbers (except hits, runs, triples and stolen bases) are slightly inferior to Martinez's (he has 4 less RBIs). But he was a Gold Glover in center field as you mention.
Originally posted by badmooni just looked it up and his 22 hrs were from 465 at bats.. that seems about like what someone would put up in a normal season..
Bernie Williams should never had won a golden glove. He had a lousy glove and no arm at all. No hall for Bernie.
and i never watched him when he was a lot younger and winning those but i was scratching my head at that one, as when he was older i thought he sucked..
Originally posted by irontigranYeah, a HR every 21 ABs against the best pitching MLB can muster is sure lousy. Yeah, when he was older he didn't cover as much ground as he did when he was younger; what a shock! I "never watched him" in the prime of his career (IronHead) but I feel qualified to judge how good a fielder he was.
i just looked it up and his 22 hrs were from 465 at bats.. that seems about like what someone would put up in a normal season..
and i never watched him when he was a lot younger and winning those but i was scratching my head at that one, as when he was older i thought he sucked..
There's some real baseball "experts" in this thread.
According to this site:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/willibe02.shtml
Bernie will most likely be in the HoF. (Check the HoF monitor at the bottom of the page.) Four gold gloves, five-time all-star, post season records in HR, multiple base hits and RBI's. Longevity with one team while winning four WS may also help his case.
np
p.s. the same site has Edgar Martinez rated just slightly below Bernie as a likely candidate for the HoF. (133.0 vs. 131.5. 100.0 or more is a likely HoFer.) Edgar has 22 more home runs, has .015 higher BA, and one more all-star appearance. I say you gotta take them both if you take one. He hit a HR once per 16 AB in the post season which is better ratio than Bernie's Can't penalize a player because he happened to spend his whole career on a team that didn't make the playoffs most of the time.
Originally posted by neonpeon41exactly, i was going to put that but seemed to miss the point.
Can't penalize a player because he happened to spend his whole career on a team that sucked most of the time.
if williams was on the mariners and martinez was on the yankees i think it would be a lowered chance for williams and a higher chance for martinez..
without getting to the playoffs each year obviously williams doesnt get into the 20s
Originally posted by neonpeon41(Shrug) Being a key component of a very successful team is normally considered a good thing. Apparently not by some of the "experts" here.
According to this site:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/willibe02.shtml
Bernie will most likely be in the HoF. (Check the HoF monitor at the bottom of the page.) Four gold gloves, five-time all-star, post season records in HR, multiple base hits and RBI's. Longevity with one team while winning four WS may also help his case.
np
p.s. the happened to spend his whole career on a team that didn't make the playoffs most of the time.
Personally, I'm pretty sure Martinez won't make it and I doubt if Bernie will. The Yankees screwed him by forcing him to retire early (he didn't want to play anywhere else and all the Yanks offered him was a minor league contract before 2007: an insult). A couple more hundred hits, say 2500-2700, and I think he makes it. The Yanks cut off their nose to spite their face; in 2006 Williams hit .340 against left-handed pitching and the Yankees poor record against lefties in 2007 cost them the division.
Originally posted by no1marauderThe Yankees are quite good at insulting by offering less than fair contracts. I know if I were they guy deciding contracts for the Yankees I would make sure the manager who took me to a whole lot of postseasons was not going to take a step back in pay.
(Shrug) Being a key component of a very successful team is normally considered a good thing. Apparently not by some of the "experts" here.
Personally, I'm pretty sure Martinez won't make it and I doubt if Bernie will. The Yankees screwed him by forcing him to retire early (he didn't want to play anywhere else and all the Yanks offered him w ...[text shortened]... handed pitching and the Yankees poor record against lefties in 2007 cost them the division.
What is also upsetting about Bernie's contract offer is that you don't find much team loyalty anymore in the MLB. Here's a guy who had spent his whole career (I believe 20 seasons when you count the minors) with one organization and he took a serious pay cut ($12.5mil to $1.5) to remain a Yankee in '06.
I'm not really a Yankees fan, but it makes me mad when an employee is obviously still contributing, you have a reputation for deep pockets, and you still can't make a fair offer to someone who has poured his whole career into your organization. I don't care if it's baseball or any other business. Loyalty and production should be rewarded.
Not that I have anything personally against any of the players or coaches, but I do not want to see the Yankees in the postseason (really ever, but this season especially) solely on how they treated Torre.
np
When he almost went to Baltimore the Yankees signed Bernie for top dollar. The Yankees always pay top dollar for players (Jeter, Pettitte and Clemens for example are guys who got paid more than market value) and Bernie Williams through out his career made a bundle of money. The Yankees try to win games and decided they wanted to go in a different direction. Bernie significantly declined, his poor arm became a joke, he was not the field he used to be nor the hitter. He became a parttime player and with his former credentials it was hard to develop a guy like Cabrera with a faded icon on the bench. The sad reality is non-performance enhance users decline fast and have shorter careers. This is why I would cheater and respect Williams' career even if it was on the short side of being "immortal"
Originally posted by myteamtrulystinksActually the Red Sox offered more money to Bernie in the early 2000's then the Yankees did. I disagree that Jeter or Petitte are paid more than market value; Jeter's one of the best clutch players in the game and Petitte continues to win games (up to 11 this year). Clemens was a special case last year though I doubt the Yankees would have made the playoffs without him considering the alternatives as starting pitching.
When he almost went to Baltimore the Yankees signed Bernie for top dollar. The Yankees always pay top dollar for players (Jeter, Pettitte and Clemens for example are guys who got paid more than market value) and Bernie Williams through out his career made a bundle of money. The Yankees try to win games and decided they wanted to go in a different ...[text shortened]... uld cheater and respect Williams' career even if it was on the short side of being "immortal"
Bernie might not have been the player he used to be, but please actually read my post; he was a far better hitter against lefties than Cabrera or Damon or Giambi. To offer him only a minor league contract was not only an insult, but it was detrimental to the team.
I think we agree on a lot about Bernie but I do think it is a little bit like the problem they are having in Green Bay. There comes a point when the incumbant is better head to head than the potential replacement but the team may for good reason want to move on anyway.
I think the Yankees had Bernie Williams on their roster they would pay him every day (as they sort of did when they brought in Kenny Lofton which I imagine was not what the general manager had in mind).
You really think Andy Pettitte is worth $16M on the open market?