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  1. Standard member asromacalcio
    asromacalcio
    27 May '07 03:52
    Liverpool are the most successful English club ever, discuss.

    Well, OK, statistically, but for those of us who don't get on with them, there are a few things we can say.

    1- Why can't you win the league? Seriously, I'm not carping, but you are a *very long* way short of being the best in England and have been since 1991.

    2- You had 14 good years. That very successful period was started by Shanks (who could have steered my club Crewe Alexandra to glory) and continued by Paisley. Their legacy will live forever, but sadly, managers like that come around once every century, and there aren't any round right now, not knocking on your door. Either side of that period you have loitered around the top division picking up occasional trophies, and given your 120-odd year history, to have won 18 league titles is on average one a decade. These last sixteen years therefore have been more indicative of the club's fortunes since its inception than the 'blip' inspired by a one-off immortal.

    Liverpool will not become the side they were without another Shanks, the same way Forest will never win the Champions League without another Cloughie.

    I respect your right to dream. I thought Crewe could get in the top flight, one day, until about two years ago. Dario is past his best now, and like Shankly, Cloughie and Marcello Lippi, you don't find these guys queuing down the job centre.

    But give Rafa time, they say. Hmmmm, time for what, to prove he's not really THAT good. You did that with Houllier.
  2. Standard member Rooney Once a Blue
    Always a Red
    27 May '07 05:11 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by asromacalcio
    Liverpool are the most successful English club ever, discuss.

    Well, OK, statistically, but for those of us who don't get on with them, there are a few things we can say.

    1- Why can't you win the league? Seriously, I'm not carping, but you are a *very long* way short of being the best in England and have been since 1991.

    2- You had 14 good ye . Hmmmm, time for what, to prove he's not really THAT good. You did that with Houllier.
    Liverpool will continue to be the most sucessful club until Mancester United reach 19 Championship victories, hopefully in the next 5 years.

    Although Liverpool are the most sucesssful, this is tainted slightly in my opinion because they never managed to win The Treble, even at a time when 11 English men with a pulse could probably form a team to get to at least the 1/4 finals of the European Cup (ala Villa and Forest).

    1.
    They havn't looked like winning the league in the last 17 years for 3 reasons, I think:
    - They can't buy the best like they did in the 70s and 80s, even now IF their new owners show some money it will only put them on a par with Manchester United financially and still way behind Chelsea.
    - They have not had a manager like Ferguson or Wenger. Both managers have proven ability to continually develop youth and also buy good players, Rafa does not seem to be able to do either, even though with the players he has, he is a tactical genious, apparently.
    - Liverpool have become a smaller club, London is an attraction for top players, their stadium is too small and financially they can't compete.
    This may change if the new owners invest heavily and Rafa starts to produce youth players consistently, only time will tell, but it will not happen overnight and will the USA owners have the patience?


    2.
    Unfortunately for Liverpool two of the greatest managers ever seen in the English game arrrived at Manchester United and Arsenal during the early stages of thier transitional period.
    The managers they had, Dalglish, Souness, Evans, Houllier and Beneithus are just not in the same class.
  3. Standard member asromacalcio
    asromacalcio
    27 May '07 05:40 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
    Liverpool will continue to be the most sucessful club until Mancester United reach 19 Championship victories, hopefully in the next 5 years.

    Although Liverpool are the most sucesssful, this is tainted slightly in my opinion because they never managed to win The Treble, even at a time when 11 English men with a pulse could probably form a team t managers they had, Dalglish, Souness, Houllier and Beneithus are just not in the same class.
    Well balanced post, I was expecting something more direct from you, but good call.

    I'd still be interested to see what Liverpool fans have to say about my theory that their good 14 years was 'out of character' for an otherwise average club.
  4. Standard member asromacalcio
    asromacalcio
    27 May '07 05:43
    Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
    Liverpool will continue to be the most sucessful club until Mancester United reach 19 Championship victories, hopefully in the next 5 years.
    What are you up to now, I thought it was 18, equal to Liverpool. But then I thought Morecambe were a Conference side. How ill-informed one can be.
  5. Standard member Rooney Once a Blue
    Always a Red
    27 May '07 05:50
    Originally posted by asromacalcio
    What are you up to now, I thought it was 18, equal to Liverpool. But then I thought Morecambe were a Conference side. How ill-informed one can be.
    When Manchester United reach 18 Championship victories its debatable who are the greatest English side ever.
    Liverpool have won 5 European Cups.
    Manchester United The Treble and 11 FA Cups.

    So I now say Manchester United need 19 to make it clear they are the best.

    Its only a matter of time, will it be 5 or 10 years, who knows with a variable like Chelsea around.

    One thing is sure though Liiverpool won't get past 18 Championship victories.
  6. Standard member asromacalcio
    asromacalcio
    27 May '07 06:00
    Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
    When Manchester United reach 18 Championship victories its debatable who are the greatest English side ever.
    Liverpool have won 5 European Cups.
    Manchester United The Treble and 11 FA Cups.

    So I now say Manchester United need 19 to make it clear they are the best.

    Its only a matter of time, will it be 5 or 10 years, who knows with a variab ...[text shortened]... helsea around.

    One thing is sure though Liiverpool won't get past 18 Championship victories.
    But how many have you won?
  7. Standard member Rooney Once a Blue
    Always a Red
    27 May '07 06:12
    Originally posted by asromacalcio
    But how many have you won?
    Manchester United have won 16 English Championships, just 2 behind Liverpool now and 2 European Cups.

    I also would be very interested to here why Liverpool supporters think they have not been competitive for 17 years.

    Unfortunaltely they are extreamly reluctant to give details.

    Whenever you question their lack of recent sucess you get the two same standard replys:-
    - You can talk to me when you have won 18 Championships
    - We've won it 5 times

    I am also still waiting for an explanation as to why Liverpool were never able to win The Treble.

    I think its becasue they are not the biggest club in England.

    The most sucessful, yes because of a good spell in the 70's and 80's, but not the biggest.
    Manchester United still got bigger crowds when they were in the old 2nd division and winning nothing than Liverpool did.
  8. Standard member asromacalcio
    asromacalcio
    27 May '07 06:16
    Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
    Manchester United have won 16 English Championships, just 2 behind Liverpool now and 2 European Cups.

    I also would be very interested to here why Liverpool supporters think they have not been competitive for 17 years.

    Unfortunaltely they are extreamly reluctant to give details.

    Whenever you question their lack of recent sucess you get the ...[text shortened]... bigger crowds when they were in the old 2nd division and winning nothing than Liverpool did.
    We are singing from the same hymn sheet.

    Just one thing, were you there when your lot humiliated Roma?

    It's OK, I'd rather lose 7-1 to you than 1-0 to Liverpool.
  9. Standard member Rooney Once a Blue
    Always a Red
    27 May '07 06:28
    Originally posted by asromacalcio
    We are singing from the same hymn sheet.

    Just one thing, were you there when your lot humiliated Roma?

    It's OK, I'd rather lose 7-1 to you than 1-0 to Liverpool.
    I was a Manchester United season ticket holder but had to give it up 3 years ago because I moved to LA to work.

    So I have to settle for watching live games on TV at times like 5.00am and 8.00am now over here.

    The 7-1 victory was quite unbelievable and just adds the history of Manchester United that makes them the biggest club in England and most followed club around the world.
    They entertaint as well as win games.

    I think players like Rooney and Ronaldo will lead a new Manchester United to many future Championships and cup wins, but I would also like to hear from Liverpool supporters why they think they can overcome Manchester United and Chelsea.

    In a similar thread one Liverpool supported clamed that Liverpool now have all the ingredients to win the championship.

    When asked to elaborate you never get an answer.
  10. Standard member asromacalcio
    asromacalcio
    27 May '07 06:36
    Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
    In a similar thread one Liverpool supported clamed that Liverpool now have all the ingredients to win the championship.

    When asked to elaborate you never get an answer.
    There isn't one. Liverpool are not the club they were in the 80s and never again will be.

    Now I think of it, weren't fluorescent odd socks big in the 80s? No signs of them making a comeback either.
  11. 27 May '07 11:16
    League Champions (Premiership for the SKY generation)

    LFC 18
    MUFC 16

    European Cup (Champions League)

    LFC 5
    MUFC 2

    FA Cup

    MUFC 11
    LFC 7

    League Cup

    LFC 7
    MUFC 2

    LFC 3 UEFA cups
    MUFC 1 Cup Winners Cup

    The greatest? Facts say it's LFC. End of story.
  12. Standard member asromacalcio
    asromacalcio
    27 May '07 12:14
    Originally posted by Angry Boy
    League Champions (Premiership for the SKY generation)

    LFC 18
    MUFC 16

    European Cup (Champions League)

    LFC 5
    MUFC 2

    FA Cup

    MUFC 11
    LFC 7

    League Cup

    LFC 7
    MUFC 2

    LFC 3 UEFA cups
    MUFC 1 Cup Winners Cup

    The greatest? Facts say it's LFC. End of story.
    On those terms you are the greatest, but as I said, most of that was achieved in a relatively short period inspired by a very very great man.

    Before and since, there's less to shout about.

    Juventus have won I think 27 Italian titles. They'll be in the hunt next year just wait and see.

    Or maybe they'll have to wait 16 years.

    Personally I can't see that. They are too good!
  13. 27 May '07 13:07
    A nother
    I nzaghe
    G oal
  14. Standard member Rooney Once a Blue
    Always a Red
    27 May '07 16:40 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by asromacalcio
    On those terms you are the greatest, but as I said, most of that was achieved in a relatively short period inspired by a very very great man.

    Before and since, there's less to shout about.

    Juventus have won I think 27 Italian titles. They'll be in the hunt next year just wait and see.

    Or maybe they'll have to wait 16 years.

    Personally I can't see that. They are too good!
    He's right Liverpool have had almost all of thier sucess in a short 15 year period.

    Liverpool are the most sucessful side but not the biggest in England.

    You forget to mention that Liverpool have not won the World club championship or The Treble.

    Manchester United are the most famous English side outside of England and over the last 50 years have consistently had a bigger following in England and more people at the games.

    When Manchester United get to 19 Championships we will be the most sucessful and the biggest English club of all time.

    Like our Italian friend says Juventus even if they do not win in Italy over the next 3 seasons will still be competitive because they are a big side.

    Liverpool have not been competitive for 17 years, thats why you are not the bigest club or even a big club on the world stage.

    Can you explain how you expect this to change or will you keep on repeating how sucessful you were in a small 15 year period in the 70's and 80's?
  15. 27 May '07 16:53
    What's all this 14/15 year crap? LFC were contesting the league every season from 63 to 91. Winning 13 titles in 28 years. And what does it matter anyway? Surely the number of trophies won is more important than how evenly you spread them out accross your history? This thread's a poor wind-up even by your standards.

    BTW - HALF of ManUtd's title's have come in a 14 year period.