Originally posted by shortcircuitObviously Henke.
Ok Darv, I will let you decide.
Given your choice, would you rather have the pen of a few years ago or Tom Henke in his prime?
Yep, I would rather have Henke as well!!! 😛
Although if you gave me the option of taking Henke or a healthy Duane Ward, that might be a tougher choice.
Originally posted by shortcircuitwhat are you talking about? You now want a pitcher to go to the whole of fame for winning golden gloves? I want the guy to either be a top pitcher for a short period of time (Morris never finished 1st or 2nd in cy voting) or have great career numbers. A 3.90 with 250 wins doesn't make it in that category either.
I guess Jim Kaat deserves the HOF then. No one won as many gold gloves as he did. Greg Maddux is his closest suitor. That is greatness when NO ONE was better than you were...right??
Originally posted by darvlayStill think the over under on losses is four? Halladay is great but that number is super crazy.
Maybe the better question is many how games will he lose?
I'd put the over/under on that at 4.
Halladay playing for a great team in a weak division. Scary, scary thought.
Originally posted by quackquackI am just using statistics man. The best is the best. You can't argue that based on your numbers, can you?
what are you talking about? You now want a pitcher to go to the whole of fame for winning golden gloves? I want the guy to either be a top pitcher for a short period of time (Morris never finished 1st or 2nd in cy voting) or have great career numbers. A 3.90 with 250 wins doesn't make it in that category either.
Originally posted by quackquackHere are the numbers. They are not as skewed as you think they are.
McLain certain was the dominant pitcher in baseball for a few years (something Jack Morris never was).
Here are Denny McLain's stats
131W..91L..1886IP..548BB..1282K..3.39ERA..1.16WHIP
Here are Jack Morris' stats
254W..186L..3824IP..1390BB..2478K..3.90ERA..1.29WHIP
Just for laughs, if you extrapolate McLain's numbers out to 18 years (giving him credit for the same pitching prowess the entire time (which is generous because he would expect to tail off as he aged...but for arguments' sake we will say he was superman). look at how the key numbers compare.
Wins..... McLain 236 Morris 254
Losses...McLain 164 Morris 186
BB........McLain 986 Morris 1390
K's........McLain 2308 Morris 2478
Here are McLain's awards Played from 1963- 1972 (10 seasons)
All Star selections - 3 (1966, 1968, 1969)
MVP -1 (1968)
CY Award - 2 (1968, 1969)
TSN Pitcher of the year - 2 (1968, 1969)
World Series Champions played for - 1 (1968 Detroit)
Here are Jack Morris' awards Played from 1977 - 1994 (18 seasons )
All Star selections - 5 (1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1991)
TSN Pitcher of the Year - 1 (1981)
World Series MVP - 1 (1991)
Babe Ruth Award - 2 (1984, 1991)
World Series Champions played for - 4 ( 1984 Detroit, 1991 Minnesota, 1992, 1993 Toronto)
You say Morris never was dominant??
1979 - 17W - 7L
1983 - 29W - 13L
1984 - 19W - 11L
1986 - 21W - 8L
1987 - 18W - 11L
1991 - 18W - 12L
1992 - 21W - 6L (2 years before he retired!!!)
Now for a few more grins and giggles, here are some comparisons with the last 10 pitchers selected to the HOF
Nolan Ryan.......324W...292L...3.19ERA...1.247 WHIP
Phil Niekro........318W...274L...3.35ERA...1.268WHIP
Jim Bunning......224W...184L...3.27ERA...1.179WHIP
Steve Carlton....329W...244L...3.22ERA...1.247WHIP
Hal Newhouser..207W...150L...3.06ERA...1.311WHIP
Tom Seaver......311W...205L...2.86ERA...1.121WHIP
Fergie Jenkins...284W...226L...3.34ERA...1.142WHIP
Gaylord Perry...314W...265L...3.11ERA...1.181WHIP
Jim Palmer.......268W...152L...2.86ERA...1.180WHIP
Jim Hunter........224W...166L...3.26ERA...1.134WHIP
Jack Morris.......254W...186L....3.90ERA...1.290WHIP
His winning percentage and WHIP compare favorably, although his ERA is higher than all. He was a money pitcher as evidenced in big games.
Originally posted by shortcircuitYour arguement are absolutely insane.
Here are the numbers. They are not as skewed as you think they are.
Here are Denny McLain's stats
131W..91L..1886IP..548BB..1282K..3.39ERA..1.16WHIP
Here are Jack Morris' stats
254W..186L..3824IP..1390BB..2478K..3.90ERA..1.29WHIP
Just for laughs, if you extrapolate McLain's numbers out to 18 years (giving him credit for the same pitchin ...[text shortened]... y, although his ERA is higher than all. He was a money pitcher as evidenced in big games.
(1) Denny Mclain won 131 games in his career. Since he was born in 1944, I think we can agree he'll not pitch any further. Why would you possibly extrapolate his stats? He simply was a guy who won 55 games in a two year period and very little the rest of his short career. He had a short dominant spurt. Something Morris never had.
(2) Morris had 254 wins from 1977 to 1994. It is impressive but not a Hall of Fame number. His 3.90 career ERA is shockingly high. The fact that you find an award he once won as best pitcher for one year (a strike shortened year) proves that he never was really was the best pitcher. He never finished first or second in the Cy Young voting (so he was at no time better than the third best pitcher in AL in any year). Never led the league in WHIP or ERA. This is why he just isn't a Hall of Famer.
(3) There are pleanty of great pitchers who overlapped with Morris career. Ryan 324 wins, 3.19 ERA blows him away, Clemens 354 wins 3.12 ERA 7Cys, 3 time WHIP leader, 7 time ERA leader, Carlton 329, 3.22 ERA 4 cys are hall of famers from his era, Neikro 318 wins 3.35 ERA, Perry 314 wins 3.11 ERA, Seaver 311 wins, 3 cys
(4) Morris is unfavorable to the next level. Sutton 324 wins 4 led league om WHIPS, 1 led league in ERA is better. Tommy John 288 wins 3.34 era. Two runner ups in the CY.
(5) In 1983 Morris won 20, not 29 games.
Originally posted by quackquackI offered the interpolation to show Morris was a better pitcher if McLain had been able to maintain his stats for the same duration Morris did (although it was extremely unlikely).
Your arguement are absolutely insane.
(1) Denny Mclain won 131 games in his career. Since he was born in 1944, I think we can agree he'll not pitch any further. Why would you possibly extrapolate his stats? He simply was a guy who won 55 games in a two year period and very little the rest of his short career. He had a short dominant spurt. Somethi ...[text shortened]... John 288 wins 3.34 era. Two runner ups in the CY.
(5) In 1983 Morris won 20, not 29 games.
The 29 was a typo. It was 20 wins.
I think the presence of Clemens might have greatly reduced most pitchers chances of winning the CY.
Originally posted by shortcircuitAlthough I appreciate your effort, I think it has little meaning to extrapolate a guy who is not a Hall of Famer and had two super human years and the rest of his career was ordinary.
I offered the interpolation to show Morris was a better pitcher if McLain had been able to maintain his stats for the same duration Morris did (although it was extremely unlikely).
The 29 was a typo. It was 20 wins.
I think the presence of Clemens might have greatly reduced most pitchers chances of winning the CY.
The Clemens point rings true. He clearly is a cheater. All his numbers should be struck and his awards should be reawarded. Morris never finished in the top 2 so he'd still have zero Cys but he might be closer. The 3.90 ERA, no Cys and 254 wins makes him very very good but not a Hall of Famer to me.
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Originally posted by quackquackNow don't get started on the cheating crap. If you go there, I can show you how nearly half of ALL HOF'ers currently enshrined should be removed because of some infringement of the rules, but they are not.
Although I appreciate your effort, I think it has little meaning to extrapolate a guy who is not a Hall of Famer and had two super human years and the rest of his career was ordinary.
The Clemens point rings true. He clearly is a cheater. All his numbers should be struck and his awards should be reawarded. Morris never finished in the top 2 so he'd ...[text shortened]... ser. The 3.90 ERA, no Cys and 254 wins makes him very very good but not a Hall of Famer to me.
Furthermore, Clemens was already one of the best to ever lace them up BEFORE his alleged use of PED's.
Honestly, you guys and your soapboxes.