Roy Halladay

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Now don't get started on the cheating crap. If you go there, I can show you how nearly half of ALL HOF'ers currently enshrined should be removed because of some infringement of the rules, but they are not.
Furthermore, Clemens was already one of the best to ever lace them up BEFORE his alleged use of PED's.

Honestly, you guys and your soapboxes.

Performance enhancing is a big issue in determining who is great and whose career was just a joke. It is not just about cheating (which obviously is wrong) but it is about the fact that guys start taking chemicals and go from good players to super human. (McGwire batted .201 then rejuvinated and hits 70 homers; Sosa was a borderline major leaguer and then he hits like Mickey Mantle. We can hide or heads in the sand or we can chose to honor those who achieved dishonestly.

To me it is real simple with Clemens and the guys mentioned above (sorry if you need to defend him because he is from Texas) achieved greatness due to cheating and all of their stats should be stricken. No one knows when people start cheating but it is not when they perfect it. So I'd imagine that a guy like Bonds did not start cheating with BALCO. He advanced to it (just like most heroine junkies didn't start with hard drugs) He started with smaller things and work their way up.

The idea that everyone cheats is a joke. There is no evidence that Lou Gehrig was juicing or Cy Young or Walter Johnson or Warren Spahn. In fact, other than Gaylord Perry (I would exclude him too) I cannot see how you could even construct an argument that anyone cheated to the extent and had the effects that guys like Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, Palmero did.

If Clemens did not cheat he probably would have continued his decline when he left Boston and won at most his 2 Cys (instead of 7).

Morris has a much more legitimate claim if his numbers are real and others aren't. But 250 wins. No Cys, No runner ups. 3.90 career ERA. He is so far from the line, that if you don't want to discuss performance enhancers, I can't believe you'd even want to discuss it.

Originally posted by quackquack
Performance enhancing is a big issue in determining who is great and whose career was just a joke. It is not just about cheating (which obviously is wrong) but it is about the fact that guys start taking chemicals and go from good players to super human. (McGwire batted .201 then rejuvinated and hits 70 homers; Sosa was a borderline major leaguer and th on't want to discuss performance enhancers, I can't believe you'd even want to discuss it.

Read what I said again.

I did not limit the term "cheating" just to "juicing" as you say. I meant breaking the written rules of the game. And yes, many of the most heralded stars in the HOF are guilty.

Cobb, Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Ford, Schmidt, McCovey, Perry, Lemon, R. Jackson, and the list goes on.
They were all dirty and they all had cover ups.
So the writers and the "holier than though" individuals who want to change the playing field now because it suits them
or because they still have their blinders on will receive nothing but scorn and contempt from those of us who know the real score.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Read what I said again.

I did not limit the term "cheating" just to "juicing" as you say. I meant breaking the written rules of the game. And yes, many of the most heralded stars in the HOF are guilty.

Cobb, Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Ford, Schmidt, McCovey, Perry, Lemon, R. Jackson, and the list goes on.
They were all dirty and they all had cover ups. ...[text shortened]... s on will receive nothing but scorn and contempt from those of us who know the real score.

Your crazy if you think all forms of breaking rules are the same and unlike your list guys mentioned in the Mitchell Report are completely distinguishable from your list. Performance enhancers have made what was literally impossible, into common occurance. In 100 years two guys reached 60 homers in a year. Bonds, McGuire and Sosa all blew that number away and the reason is clear -- they had assistance. I don't think you need to be a saint to be in the Hall of Fame (and perhaps your list shows that). But one thing should be clear: if your accomplishments are caused by a chemist your stats should be stricken.

I'd rather induct Victor Conte than Barry Bonds.

Originally posted by quackquack
Your crazy if you think all forms of breaking rules are the same and unlike your list guys mentioned in the Mitchell Report are completely distinguishable from your list. Performance enhancers have made what was literally impossible, into common occurance. In 100 years two guys reached 60 homers in a year. Bonds, McGuire and Sosa all blew that number a ...[text shortened]... a chemist your stats should be stricken.

I'd rather induct Victor Conte than Barry Bonds.

Go check another set of numbers out and you may be amazed.

Check out the TOTAL number of homers for ALL hitters.
You will find, they were up.

There are several reasons too.
1. The ball was juiced.
2. The quality of pitching was diminished.
3. The ballparks were overall, more conducive to the long ball.
4. Several players....many more than were named, were on PED's...with the blessing of baseball management.

Now, when you have baseballs flying out at record pace from hitters who are as big as houses...why would you condemn pitchers who tried to even the playing field?

Think about it.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Go check another set of numbers out and you may be amazed.

Check out the TOTAL number of homers for ALL hitters.
You will find, they were up.

There are several reasons too.
1. The ball was juiced.
2. The quality of pitching was diminished.
3. The ballparks were overall, more conducive to the long ball.
4. Several players....many more than wer houses...why would you condemn pitchers who tried to even the playing field?

Think about it.

While we no longer see anyone hit 60+ HRs, the number of homers for all hitters has continued to remain at near peak levels, even after the supposed crackdown on PEDs.

I was expecting a major drop-off, especially after the Mitchell Report. It hasn't happened. Are players still using PEDs at the same rates as before (merely doing a better job of evading detection)?

Originally posted by Melanerpes
While we no longer see anyone hit 60+ HRs, the number of homers for all hitters has continued to remain at near peak levels, even after the supposed crackdown on PEDs.

I was expecting a major drop-off, especially after the Mitchell Report. It hasn't happened. Are players still using PEDs at the same rates as before (merely doing a better job of evading detection)?

You don't think there has been a drop-off? I certainly do although I haven't looked at any numbers. There are still a few mashers out there who are locks for 45 HRs a season (Howard, Fielder, for instance) but they don't seem at all like juicers to me and typically a power hitter now is a guy who can hit 30-35, not the 40-45 being smacked by every tom, dick and harry in the late 90's early 00's. No more guys like Brady Anderson hitting 51 HRs, that's for sure.

Originally posted by darvlay
You don't think there has been a drop-off? I certainly do although I haven't looked at any numbers. There are still a few mashers out there who are locks for 45 HRs a season (Howard, Fielder, for instance) but they don't seem at all like juicers to me and typically a power hitter now is a guy who can hit 30-35, not the 40-45 being smacked by every tom, dic ...[text shortened]... e late 90's early 00's. No more guys like Brady Anderson hitting 51 HRs, that's for sure.

So maybe the numbers of players that juiced on any kind of a regular basis were never more than a very small group -- meaning that almost all of the increased offense since 1995 has arisen due to some other cause.

On the other hand, in what way do Howard or Fielder not seem like juicers? Do they not have the kind of oversized body-builds that juicers tend to have? (Although, in Fielder's case, a good argument can be made for genetics).

Originally posted by Melanerpes
On the other hand, in what way do Howard or Fielder not seem like juicers? Do they not have the kind of oversized body-builds that juicers tend to have? (Although, in Fielder's case, a good argument can be made for genetics).

Well, Fielder has the rage that goes with steroid use but he certainly doesn't have the... "definition", shall we say? And Howard has always had the power stroke and the size, nowhere in his career did he go from a size 12 to 15 overnight, like Bonds, Sosa or McGwire. Also, he has remained healthy his whole career so there has been no need for the ol' HGH-healing-option. Just my opinion though!

personally, I think the MLB is undergoing a pitching renaissance at the moment. Coupled that with the decreased use of PEDs, we're gonna see a lot of pitchers this year with ERAs under 3.00 at the end of the year.

Originally posted by darvlay
Well, Fielder has the rage that goes with steroid use but he certainly doesn't have the... "definition", shall we say? And Howard has always had the power stroke and the size, nowhere in his career did he go from a size 12 to 15 overnight, like Bonds, Sosa or McGwire. Also, he has remained healthy his whole career so there has been no need for the ol' HGH- ...[text shortened]... s, we're gonna see a lot of pitchers this year with ERAs under 3.00 at the end of the year.

Look at McGwire's numbers again. He was better than 10-15 HR's a year before the onslaught. On years he was down, he was also hurt.

Regarding your claim on abundant pitchers with 3.00 or below ERA at season's end,
I would place the over /under at 3 pitcher's....and it may not get that high. Injuries could take the toll. Furthermore, all sub 3.00 ERA's will come from the NL, if they occur.

Originally posted by darvlay
Well, Fielder has the rage that goes with steroid use but he certainly doesn't have the... "definition", shall we say? And Howard has always had the power stroke and the size, nowhere in his career did he go from a size 12 to 15 overnight, like Bonds, Sosa or McGwire. Also, he has remained healthy his whole career so there has been no need for the ol' HGH- ...[text shortened]... s, we're gonna see a lot of pitchers this year with ERAs under 3.00 at the end of the year.

I remember when McGwire was a rookie in 1987 putting up 49 HRs - I remember all those super-sized Bash-Boy Oakland teams from 1988-90 - the guy has always been a monster. Of course, it's possible that McGwire was juiced right from the beginning - Canseco was probably giving personal injections to everyone on those Bash-Boy teams.

As for Howard remaining healthy "his whole career", perhaps there's a reason someone with his size has not yet fallen apart.

As for Fielder, no amount of steroids is going to burn off all the fat he inherited from his daddy. On the other hand, Albert Pujols has pretty good "definition" and some rather super-sized numbers.

I truly hope all three of these are relying only on their natural talents. But nothing would surprise me one bit.

I'm not talking about numbers, boys. I know McGwire always had 50 HR potential. I'm talking about size.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/11/mark-mcgwire-steroids-pho_n_419097.html

McGwire is a a joke look at his numbers after his 49 HR season. He hit in the thirtees in HRs for three years. Batting .231 and .235 for the last two. Then the year he claims he is hurt he plays 154 games and hits a whopping .201 with 22 homeruns. Then he hits 42 hrs followed by two years where he missed most of the season. But at age 32 his homerun totals are 52, 58, 70 and 65 with huge jumps in batting average as well. Only a true fool believes it has anything to do with his size, his natural ability or his rookie year which was ten years earlier.

Of course their are guys who cheat other than McGwire and Clemens. But that in no way exonerates those who we know cheated.

It will be interesting (not if, but when) someone who is already in the Hall of Fame reveals that they were on the juice for a significant part of their career.

Originally posted by Melanerpes
It will be interesting (not if, but when) someone who is already in the Hall of Fame reveals that they were on the juice for a significant part of their career.

I have heard that a lot and it is true it will happen but the idea that we should forgive everyone in the name of equal treatment because we know we made a mistake is ludicriuos.

Originally posted by quackquack
I have heard that a lot and it is true it will happen but the idea that we should forgive everyone in the name of equal treatment because we know we made a mistake is ludicriuos.

In all likelihood, the more blatant juicers like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and Clemens will not see the HOF (at least not during their lifetimes). But at some point, the voters will have to set a standard for what is forgiveable and what isn't.

But once someone who's already in the HOF turns out to have been a blatant juicer, a large can of worms will have been opened. Perhaps it might even lead to a procedure for removing people from the HOF - and maybe certain other cheaters like Gaylord Perry could then be cast out.