@no1marauder saidWell presumably a retrospective charge as ridiculous as that will nit get very far in court. A lot of these negative actions by the Ukrainian govt will have to be rescinded if they want to join the EU which is one good reason for supporting their application. There are quite strict rules on the treatment of minorities. However any idea that what the Ukrainians may ir may not have gone regarding linguistic minorities in no way excuses or is comparable to the slaughter that Russia has unleashed on Ukraine.
Zelensky has filed high treason charges against two former cabinet ministers because they helped negotiate a 2010 agreement that extended Russia's lease on a naval base in the Crimea in exchange for lower prices on Russian gas going to the Ukraine. https://interfax.com/newsroom/top-stories/81594/
That agreement was ratified by the majority in the Ukraine's Parliament who are all presumably "traitors" as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Pact
@no1marauder saidThe president that was removed was getting his orders DIRECTLY and blatantly from a hostile foreign power so you can stomp your little constitutional lawyer loafers as much as you like but the removal Yanukovich was a perfectly reasonable response to his treason. If a constitutional document prevents a nation from defending their sovereignty then its not worth the paper it’s written on their must be the ability to lay it aside in times of national peril and your defence of it as a sacred document is down to your chauvinistic American centric view of the world.
Jesus Christ, how many times do I have to remind you of the actual events that occurred in Ukraine 2014?
Attempts to impeach Donald Trump were made under the Constitutional rules and not with armed nationalists in control of the place where the vote was to be taken. As to Ukraine:
"This vote did not follow the impeachment process specified by the Ukrainian Constitut ...[text shortened]... of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of state
treason or other crime.[/b]
Ukraine is not America and the result was a traitor and Putin puppet from the most powerful position in that land. Go Ukraine 👍
1 edit
@kevcvs57 saidThere's zero evidence for such a charge as you certainly know. His "treason" amounted to preferring closer economic ties to Russia rather than to the West. That was a perfectly valid political position for a President of the Ukraine to take and if the People of the country were unhappy with it, they have the ability to vote for someone else at the next election.
The president that was removed was getting his orders DIRECTLY and blatantly from a hostile foreign power so you can stomp your little constitutional lawyer loafers as much as you like but the removal Yanukovich was a perfectly reasonable response to his treason. If a constitutional document prevents a nation from defending their sovereignty then its not worth the paper it’s ...[text shortened]... the result was a traitor and Putin puppet from the most powerful position in that land. Go Ukraine 👍
In fact, Yanukovich had reached an agreement with the main opposition parties on February 21, 2014 (brokered by two EU foreign ministers for reforms and early elections that Russia was quite unhappy with. But the nationalists with guns vetoed it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/21/agreement-on-the-settlement-of-crisis-in-ukraine-full-text
This has nothing to do with some US against the world fantasy you have cooked up. The facts of the matter is that the President of the Ukraine was illegally and violently ousted from office when there remained a Constitutional process to remove him IF the wild charges you are making were true.
That coup was the precursor of all that followed.
Something interesting I had heard... A good friend of mine has a Ukrainian colleague who is pro-Kiev and anti-Russia, but his attitude slightly changed due to real life events.
His family in one of the towns or cities in the warzone was told to stay in place! It's not safe to move! when the Ukrainain forces were occupying their area, but the second the Russians showed up they immediately told them to get out of here ASAP, it's a warzone!
This is accurate with what I have heard concerning Mariupol and it is confirmed also by this Amnesty report.
Sadly, this seems to be a tactic frequently employed by the losing side.
@philokalia saidNot sure what your critiquing if the Russians were shelling the area to rubble prior to taking it over, which is their constant game plan, then it would have been safer to stay out but once the Ukrainian forces pulled out there would be a lull in the bombardment and the best time to leave if you don’t want raped or murdered by Russian forces.
Something interesting I had heard... A good friend of mine has a Ukrainian colleague who is pro-Kiev and anti-Russia, but his attitude slightly changed due to real life events.
His family in one of the towns or cities in the warzone was told to stay in place! It's not safe to move! when the Ukrainain forces were occupying their area, but the second the Russians ...[text shortened]... by this Amnesty report.
Sadly, this seems to be a tactic frequently employed by the losing side.
1 edit
@no1marauder saidBy nationalist guns I take you mean a variety of unarmed civil societies including students.
There's zero evidence for such a charge as you certainly know. His "treason" amounted to preferring closer economic ties to Russia rather than to the West. That was a perfectly valid political position for a President of the Ukraine to take and if the People of the country were unhappy with it, they have the ability to vote for someone else at the next election.
In fac ...[text shortened]... m IF the wild charges you are making were true.
That coup was the precursor of all that followed.
Do you think anyone trusted the word of Yanukovich and his Kremlin puppet masters by this time. The same puppet masters that were bussing ethnic Russians into eastern Ukraine in preparation for the civil war they were about to unleash.
1 edit
@kevcvs57 saidHere's the truth you don't want to hear:
By nationalist guns I take you mean a variety of unarmed civil societies including students.
Do you think anyone trusted the word of Yanukovich and his Kremlin puppet masters by this time. The same puppet masters that were bussing ethnic Russians into eastern Ukraine in preparation for the civil war they were about to unleash.
" Whatever one thinks of the Maidan protests, the increasing violence of those involved was key to their ultimate victory. In response to a brutal police crackdown, protesters began fighting with chains, sticks, stones, petrol bombs, even a bulldozer — and, eventually, firearms, all culminating in what was effectively an armed battle in February, which left thirteen police officers and nearly fifty protesters dead. The police “could no longer defend themselves’ from protesters’ attacks,” writes political scientist Sergiy Kudelia, causing them to retreat, and precipitating Yanukovych’s exit.
The driver of this violence was largely the Ukrainian far right, which, while a minority of the protesters, served as a kind of revolutionary vanguard. Looking outside Kyiv, a systematic analysis of more than 3,000 Maidan protests found that members of the far-right Svoboda party — whose leader once complained Ukraine was run by a “Muscovite-Jewish mafia” and which includes a politician who admires Joseph Goebbels — were the most active agents in the protests. They were also more likely to take part in violent actions than any group but one: Right Sector, a collection of far-right activists that traces its lineage to genocidal Nazi collaborators.
Svoboda used its considerable resources, which included thousands of ideologically committed activists, party coffers, and the power and prominence afforded to it as a parliamentary party, to mobilize and keep the protests alive, while eventually leading the occupation of key government buildings in both Kyiv and the western regions. This was particularly the case in the western city of Lviv, where protesters took over a regional administration building that soon came to be partially controlled and guarded by far-right paramilitaries. There, they declared a “people’s council” that “proclaimed Svoboda-dominated local councils and their executive committees the only legitimate bodies in the region,” writes Volodymyr Ishchenko, fueling the crisis of legitimacy that ended in Yanukovych’s ouster.
But this was by no means limited to Ukraine’s West. Right Sector led the January 19 attacks on police in Kyiv that even opposition leaders criticized, with one protester saying the far-right bloc had “breathed new life into these protests.” Andriy Parubiy, the unofficial “commander of Maidan,” founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine — a barely even winking allusion to Nazism — that later became Svoboda. By January 2014, even NBC was admitting that “right-wing militia-type toughs are now one of the strongest factions leading Ukraine’s protests.” What was meant to be a revolution for democracy and liberal values ended up featuring ultranationalist chants from the 1930s and prominent displays of fascist and white supremacist symbols, including the American Confederate flag."
"The day after the deal was signed, Parliament ratified what was effectively an insurrection, voting to strip the presidency from Yanukovych, to the praise of the US ambassador. Protesters stood outside Parliament and attacked an MP from Yanukovych’s party, before overrunning the presidential palace."
https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
The leaders of the three main opposition parties and the two EU prime ministers who signed the deal were content that Yanukovich would fulfill it, but the far right fascists like Right Sector and Svoboda that you seem to adore weren't. They scuttled the agreement by threat of force and caused the civil war to erupt.
@kevcvs57 saidhttps://rumble.com/v1fesad-video-ukrainians-fleeing-to-russian-held-territory-in-droves.html
Not sure what your critiquing if the Russians were shelling the area to rubble prior to taking it over, which is their constant game plan, then it would have been safer to stay out but once the Ukrainian forces pulled out there would be a lull in the bombardment and the best time to leave if you don’t want raped or murdered by Russian forces.
@metal-brain saidStop lying and stop being stupid
https://rumble.com/v1fesad-video-ukrainians-fleeing-to-russian-held-territory-in-droves.html
@no1marauder said"In response to a brutal police crackdown".
In response to a brutal police crackdown, protesters began fighting with chains, sticks, stones, petrol bombs
The fact that racist fascists seized upon this as an excuse to promote their own goals doesn't change that Yanukovych's brutal opposition to protests was the catalyst.
@vivify saidThere was a Constitutional process to charge Yanukovch with any crimes associated with excessive force being used against the protesters/mob. It was nor followed. Even after the violence (in which more than a dozen police were killed as well), the three largest opposition parties were willing to reach an agreement with the elected President with reforms and early elections.
"In response to a brutal police crackdown".
The fact that racist fascists seized upon this as an excuse to promote their own goals doesn't change that Yanukovych's brutal opposition to protests was the catalyst.
It was the far right which scuttled that which led to the illegal impeachment and all that followed.
- Joined
- 18 Jan 07
- Moves
- 12477
@no1marauder said...no1marauder is arguing the side of the mass rapists.
Here's the truth you don't want to hear:
He doesn't want to hear that. And yet, it's the only relevant fact in this discussion. Legalities mean nothing in the face of this one fact: no1marauder argues the side of the mass rapists.
@shallow-blue saidRaving nut alert!
...no1marauder is arguing the side of the mass rapists.
He doesn't want to hear that. And yet, it's the only relevant fact in this discussion. Legalities mean nothing in the face of this one fact: no1marauder argues the side of the mass rapists.
@shavixmir
The Russian soldiers were ORDERED to be as cruel as possible to civilians and one result was the rape of a one year old boy baby who died as a result.
And the missile strikes on a railway station filled with civilians trying to just live.
Russians DELIBERATLY send missiles to specifically civilian targets like the attack on a hospital filled with pregnant women.
I don't think any Ukranian atrocities come CLOSE to the barbarity of those Russian attacks.