@zahlanzi saidWhen nations to decide to renege on promises, they usually should negotiate with those who they made the promise to in the first place. This seems esp. true when the one nation has fully executed its side of the bargain. NATO membership requires unanimous consent from existing members, so it was certainly within the capability of those who made the promise not to expand into Eastern Europe to keep it and that is regardless of what the "former soviet States" and "Warsaw pact States" desired.
"When the USSR agreed to relinquish its grip on Eastern Europe, Western leaders (including from the US and UK) essentially promised them a neutral buffer zone by stating NATO would not expand past Germany to the East. "
And when the USSR broke and the treaty of Warsaw was tossed in the bin, those countries that were essentially hostages looked for a bigger, tougher, suga ...[text shortened]... t though. And US invasions seem to come with less war crimes than the Russians committed in Ukraine.
Russia annexed Crimea after the illegal overthrow of Ukraine's President because he favored ties with Russia over dubious economic offers from the West. In the 2010 Presidential election that President received 78.24% of the Crimean vote in the run-off. https://www.electoralgeography.com/new/en/countries/u/ukraine/ukraine-presidential-election-2010.html
One could make a strong argument under "compact theory" that the unconstitutional ouster of Yanukovych justified the withdrawal of Crimea from Ukraine if that is what their people desired and "On March 6 the Crimean parliament voted to secede from Ukraine and join the Russian Federation, with a public referendum on the matter scheduled for March 16, 2014. " https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine/The-crisis-in-Crimea-and-eastern-Ukraine
Granted the March 16, 2014 referendum was a sham, but most experts in Russia and East European studies concede most of the Crimea supported withdrawal though not 97%.:
"The examination of attitudes in December 2014 through a representative survey in Crimea confirmed the support for territorial transfer and indicated that most residents believed that their well-being would improve as a result. Most lamented the end of the Soviet Union but strongly trusted President Putin and his policies as a way to improve the local economy. "
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15387216.2019.1593873?journalCode=rege20
At least 200,000 Iraqi civilians and probably many more died because of direct violence during the US and Western occupation (aided by NATO). https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
I'm not at all sure that there were less war crimes there then by the Russians in Ukraine (though all war crimes should be punished if at all possible).
@kevcvs57 saidThere's zero evidence to support your assertion that the invasion had anything to do with possible EU membership and your "economic jealously" theory is laughable.
No not now probably, given how the war has gone for him, but he certainly did in 2014 and beyond because it means he would lose economic dominance of a neighbouring state.
You lie he lies quite a lot yeah!
Why are you even quoting his statements as evidence of what he:- thinks, believes or intends? Are we to be as gullible as you in order for your post to make sense.
I ...[text shortened]... of him invading Ukraine was western anti Russian propaganda a day or two before he invaded Ukraine?
Sure, Putin lies but so what? Sure, he's an authoritarian semi-fascist but so what? Sure the Russian People would be well-advised to overthrow him and put him in prison but so what?
We have to deal with the realities of what is possible now and the truth of the situation and what caused it. That you are entirely unwilling to do.
@no1marauder said“ @no1marauder said
There's zero evidence to support your assertion that the invasion had anything to do with possible EU membership and your "economic jealously" theory is laughable.
Sure, Putin lies but so what? Sure, he's an authoritarian semi-fascist but so what? Sure the Russian People would be well-advised to overthrow him and put him in prison but so what?
We have to deal with ...[text shortened]... ssible now and the truth of the situation and what caused it. That you are entirely unwilling to do.
There's zero evidence to support your assertion that the invasion had anything to do with possible EU membership and your "economic jealously" theory is laughable.”
Haha you think the fact that he invaded Crimea and eastern Ukraine at the same time the Ukrainians ratified their intent to start the pathway to EU membership was a coincidence.
Can you please cite the post where I used the term “economic jealousy” just so I can see the context of my statement because you must know your not supposed to quote posters out context.
Here's what Ukraine got from the West after the 2014 coup:
"As international attention remained focused on Crimea, Yatsenyuk negotiated with the IMF to craft a bailout package that would address Ukraine’s $35 billion in unmet financial obligations. He also met with EU officials in Brussels, and on March 21 Yatsenyuk signed a portion of the association pact that had been rejected by Yanukovych in November 2013. The IMF ultimately proposed an $18 billion loan package that was contingent on Ukraine’s adoption of a range of austerity measures that included devaluation of the hryvnya and curbs on state subsidies that reduced the price of natural gas to consumers."
https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine/The-crisis-in-Crimea-and-eastern-Ukraine
@kevcvs57 saidNo, they didn't "ratify their intent"; nationalists illegally overthrew the elected President because he didn't want to take a crappy deal from the EU and IMF.
“ @no1marauder said
There's zero evidence to support your assertion that the invasion had anything to do with possible EU membership and your "economic jealously" theory is laughable.”
Haha you think the fact that he invaded Crimea and eastern Ukraine at the same time the Ukrainians ratified their intent to start the pathway to EU membership was a coincidence.
Can ...[text shortened]... ee the context of my statement because you must know your not supposed to quote posters out context.
"Economic jealously" is what you describe as the motivation for the Russian invasion based on the wonders you keep insisting would accrue to Ukraine if it took a pro-Western bent. In fact, however, after 2014 its economy collapsed and its present GDP per capita is the lowest in Europe and about 1/3 of Russia's (itself hardly an economic success story).
@no1marauder said"Russia annexed Crimea after the illegal overthrow of Ukraine's President because he favored ties with Russia over dubious economic offers from the West."
When nations to decide to renege on promises, they usually should negotiate with those who they made the promise to in the first place. This seems esp. true when the one nation has fully executed its side of the bargain. NATO membership requires unanimous consent from existing members, so it was certainly within the capability of those who made the promise not to expand ...[text shortened]... there then by the Russians in Ukraine (though all war crimes should be punished if at all possible).
Wtf? Putin is justified in invading a country (and stealing territory) because he doesn't agree with a matter entirely internal? There is no polite way to ask but have you lost your damn mind?
"In the 2010 Presidential election that President received 78.24% of the Crimean vote in the run-off."
And by 2014 he was accused of corruption and police abuse and personal excesses. Then he fled the country. Things change, surprisingly enough.
1 edit
@zahlanzi saidThe People of the Crimea apparently thought the illegal ouster of the President they had overwhelmingly voted for was sufficient for them to leave the Ukraine. You obviously didn't bother to read my links.
"Russia annexed Crimea after the illegal overthrow of Ukraine's President because he favored ties with Russia over dubious economic offers from the West."
Wtf? Putin is justified in invading a country (and stealing territory) because he doesn't agree with a matter entirely internal? There is no polite way to ask but have you lost your damn mind?
"In the 2010 Presidential ...[text shortened]... nd police abuse and personal excesses. Then he fled the country. Things change, surprisingly enough.
"Fleeing the country" in the face of attempts by armed men to kill you did not under the Ukrainian Constitution amount to grounds for impeachment and any resignation had to be made in person at a session of the Ukrainian Parliament under its terms. See Articles 108-111 here: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine,_2004#Chapter_V:_President_of_Ukraine
@no1marauder said“ @no1marauder said
No, they didn't "ratify their intent"; nationalists illegally overthrew the elected President because he didn't want to take a crappy deal from the EU and IMF.
"Economic jealously" is what you describe as the motivation for the Russian invasion based on the wonders you keep insisting would accrue to Ukraine if it took a pro-Western bent. In fact, however, after 2014 it ...[text shortened]... capita is the lowest in Europe and about 1/3 of Russia's (itself hardly an economic success story).
No, they didn't "ratify their intent"; nationalists illegally overthrew the elected President because he didn't want to take a crappy deal from the EU and IMF.”
Spoken like a dedicated Putin troll, he didn’t ratify it because Putin told him not to ratify, hence Maidan, hence armed militias included freed violent prisoners attacking student protesters, hence the escalation leading to over a hundred protestors and a less than 20 pro Moscow security forces being killed in the clashes, hence Putin’s puppet going back to the Kremlin, hence the Russian incursion and Russian sponsored civil war of 2014.
So when you put “Economic jealousy” in quotation marks you were actually quoting your own simple minded in accurate putinesque slant on my proposition claiming that one motivation for Putin’s opposition to EU membership for Ukraine was not wanting a close neighbour like Ukraine becoming a prosperous democratic nation in the future as a result of its EU membership because of its stark juxtapose regards Putin’s dictatorial carbon republic where the wealth of the Russian people is stolen by the Kremlin and its pliant but disgustingly wealthy oligarchy.
1 edit
@kevcvs57 saidWhat's left of your brain has been fully washed, hasn't it?
“ @no1marauder said
No, they didn't "ratify their intent"; nationalists illegally overthrew the elected President because he didn't want to take a crappy deal from the EU and IMF.”
Spoken like a dedicated Putin troll, he didn’t ratify it because Putin told him not to ratify, hence Maidan, hence armed militias included freed violent prisoners attacking student protes ...[text shortened]... th of the Russian people is stolen by the Kremlin and its pliant but disgustingly wealthy oligarchy.
Your ridiculous description of the events of 2014 is no more accurate than Metal Brain's. Of course, any leader of a country who doesn't march in step with the desires of Western neoliberals is a "puppet" of someone else and deserves removal no matter whether they have been elected or not. The coup remains an illegal act which did not follow Ukrainian Constitutional requirements nor the wishes of the largest political parties which had already reached a Western brokered agreement with Ukraine's President for reforms and early elections.
And of course, the desires of the People of a region for self-determination must be swept aside if it clashes with the plans of Western plutocrats though now, hypocritically, even you are willing to admit that the Crimea should remain part of Russia.
Your assertions that Ukraine was headed for prosperity if only it would do the bidding of Western super capitalists and that Russia was sooooooooooooooo desperate to prevent this it resorted to war is so stupid given the actual economic realities that laughing at it is the only proper response.
1 edit
@no1marauder saidHahaha you think I’ve been brainwashed 😂 you sound like a teenage socialist worker activist who hasn’t figured out that Russia is not a Marxist nirvana and never was.
What's left of your brain has been fully washed, hasn't it?
Your ridiculous description of the events of 2014 is no more accurate than Metal Brain's. Of course, any leader of a country who doesn't march in step with the desires of Western neoliberals is a "puppet" of someone else and deserves removal no matter whether they have been elected or not. The coup remains an ...[text shortened]... ar is so stupid given the actual economic realities that laughing at it is the only proper response.
I’m not even going to address your vapid interpretation of Maidan because it’s too insulting to the victims.
But just to confirm that your position is that the EU are a bunch of soul destroying, resource raping plutocrats and Putin is trying to save Ukraine from the terrible fate of EU membership 🙄 are you running a fever right now.
By the why my ridiculous description of Maidan and it’s core events is taken from wiki just google it and follow the link to wiki.
@kevcvs57 saidEU membership is of no importance in this dispute except to Western neoliberals intent on plundering the Ukraine and imposing a laissez-faire system with brutal austerity measures on its People. That's what was rejected by Ukraine's President in late 2013 though as a Reuters link provided by Teinosuke showed, he negotiated for months with the EU and IMF to try to avoid the harsh austerity measures demanded by those agencies as a condition for any aid.
Hahaha you think I’ve been brainwashed 😂 you sound like a teenage socialist worker activist who hasn’t figured out that Russia is not a Marxist nirvana and never was.
I’m not even going to address your vapid interpretation of Maidan because it’s too insulting to the victims.
But just to confirm that your position is that the EU are a bunch of soul destroying, resource rapi ...[text shortened]... iption of Maidan and it’s core events is taken from wiki just google it and follow the link to wiki.
Western propaganda regarding the coup is counterfactual to the actual events and ignores the illegality of the coup and the fact that a settlement of the issues had been reached between the three largest opposition parties and the President. That was vetoed by armed ultranationalists in possession of government buildings including the Parliament not by a free expression of the People's will.
- Joined
- 18 Jan 07
- Moves
- 12477
@no1marauder saidYou really do keep feeling the need to cement your identity as a neo-Fascist, don't you?
the Ukraine
It's not your colony, Putin-bot! Go back to Moscow, kiss Mitch McConnell on the gob, and then drown yourself in fusel vodka.