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@no1marauder saidNo, I realise that that was the American lie at the time, and is still the Russian lie now.
You do realize there was a war in Vietnam ongoing before the US intervened and that intervention was justified by the same type of "Domino Theory" being pushed by posters here?
Still a lie.
@shallow-blue saidUS policymakers surely believed it at the time just like people here believe that Russia will roll into NATO countries if not dealt an unequivocal military defeat in Ukraine.
No, I realise that that was the American lie at the time, and is still the Russian lie now.
Still a lie.
That such beliefs are unreasonable paranoia doesn't make them lies.
@vivify saidI have no intention debating someone who harbors the delusion that the Russian invasion was because of pro-EU demonstrations.
Negotiations started long before this current invasion, back when Obama reached out to Putin for a diplomatic solution to his invasion of Crimea. Russia was the one who "sabotaged" that one. I doubt your claim about April.
I won't even bother to respond to the ridiculous last sentence of your first paragraph.
The sentenced about Putin invading Ukraine after the citizens wanted to partner with the EU? Of course you won't.
@zahlanzi saidAgain, do you know what a "negotiation" is?
It's hilarious that you think Russia abandoning its illegal invasion and gtfoing, is total capitulation. It would be for Putin, ofc, but i am less concerned with what that maniac considers "fair".
Wtf happened to you. Did metal brain hack your account? I didn't expect this from you
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@no1marauder saidYou've been told about this before. Your constant misquoting is dishonest.
I have no intention debating someone who harbors the delusion that the Russian invasion was because of pro-EU demonstrations.
You know full well from our previous discussions that I'm referring to the government being on the brink of forging an alliance with the EU. Yanukavych (who dropped the EU deal) was ousted both for his brutality toward pro-EU protestors and for giving in to Putin. Russia invaded the very the next month.
It wasn't the demonstrations themselves that made Russia invade, but you know that's not what I meant. You just insist on being dishonest. I can't wait until you accuse Kev again of misrepresenting your position.
@vivify saidVivify: That goes for Russia who invaded Ukraine after pro-EU demonstrations.
You've been told about this before. Your constant misquoting is dishonest.
You know full well from our previous discussions that I'm referring to the government being on the brink of forging an alliance with the EU. Yanukavych (who dropped the EU deal) was ousted both for his brutality toward pro-EU protestors and for giving in to Putin. Russia invaded the very the nex ...[text shortened]... nsist on being dishonest. I can't wait until you accuse Kev again of misrepresenting your position.
"Misquoted"?
"Misrepresented"?
@shallow-blue saidThe "Trumpist right"? The sources I have used are all "the progressive Left".
Yet another obvious lie from the Trumpist right. It was Putin who refused to hold honest negotiations, and would only accept that he could keep what he'd stolen.
@vivify said"“Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement,” wrote Fiona Hill and Angela Stent. “Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.”
Is that the "sabotage" No1's referring to? When Johnson simply warned against giving up land in exchange for Russia's oh-so-trustworthy promise they won't invade anymore?
The news highlights the impact of former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s efforts to stop negotiations, as journalist Branko Marcetic noted on Twitter. The decision to scuttle the deal coincided with Johnson’s April visit to Kyiv, during which he reportedly urged Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to break off talks with Russia for two key reasons: Putin cannot be negotiated with, and the West isn’t ready for the war to end."
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/09/02/diplomacy-watch-why-did-the-west-stop-a-peace-deal-in-ukraine/
Of course has I have pointed our before, the claim "Putin can't be negotiated with" flies in the face of two US-Russia arms control treaties made during his tenure as Russia's leader: SORT and New Start. https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/USRussiaNuclearAgreements
@kevcvs57 saidThat's so historically wrong it's almost laughable.
The Domino theory your referring too was usually referring to the people of the country itself falling to an evil political theory ( communism ) so needed saving from itself even if meant killing huge numbers of them.
This scenario is very different, it’s about one relatively smaller country after another falling to a relatively larger expansionist state.
More akin to the ...[text shortened]... in the 1930s than Communism in Asia in the 50s, 60s and 70s.
But nice try with the Nam guilt trip.
Western political leaders in the 1950s and 1960s, both "liberal" and "conservative", would never have entertained the possibility that communism could ever win over the population of a "free" country. They saw the entire movement as a worldwide monolithic one and saw South Vietnam as being "invaded" by North Vietnam. And if that country fell, the evil Communists would move on to the rest of Southeast Asia and beyond.
The same argument with a different Bad Guy is being made here, most hysterically by Shallow.
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@no1marauder said"After" does not mean "because of".
Vivify: That goes for Russia who invaded Ukraine after pro-EU demonstrations.
"Misquoted"?
"Misrepresented"?
That post merely pointed out that Ukraine as a whole was leaning toward the EU, the protests were an example. For you to imply that I think Russia invaded for no other reason than because of protests is dishonest, especially after multiple threads where I've said the same exact thing in my previous post.
But hey, you got to dodge a post because of this little side-show you pulled, right? You misquoted me times in the thread about Russia losing the war, which is your go-to tactic when backed in a corner. Why admit you can't counter point when you can make sh.t up to attack,
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@no1marauder saidhttps://novaramedia.com/2022/10/17/no-the-west-didnt-halt-ukraines-peace-talks-with-russia/
"“Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement,” wrote Fiona Hill and Angela Stent. “Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security ...[text shortened]... ussia's leader: SORT and New Start. https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/USRussiaNuclearAgreements
No, the West Didn’t Halt Ukraine’s Peace Talks With Russia
While talks continued in Belarus and Istanbul, Russia’s leadership kept repeating that it would reach the goals of its military campaign: ‘denazification’ (regime change) and ‘demilitarisation’ (the destruction of Ukraine’s military potential). The reality on the ground showed Russian troops wouldn’t have withdrawn from the newly occupied territories in the south and east of Ukraine, and were making preparations for lasting rule. Negotiators from the Russian side had been low-ranking politicians that had no power to sign any deals and no direct line to Putin, which was a signal to the Ukrainian negotiating team.
We can play dueling links all day but the reality is Putin has never had any intention of making any deals where he gives up annexed territory, as the every failed diplomatic effort since the Crimean invasion shows.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/what-invasion-russian-denials-crimea-trigger-war-words-n45666
What Invasion? Russian Denials on Crimea
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis/putin-signs-crimea-treaty-as-ukraine-serviceman-dies-in-attack-idUSBREA1Q1E820140319
Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a treaty in Moscow on Tuesday making Crimea part of Russia again, but said he did not plan to seize any other regions of Ukraine.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-17/russia-tells-u-s-no-ukraine-invasion-planned-tass-says
Russia Denies Invasion Plans
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-putin-invasion-after-denials-now-says-no-occupation-plan/
Putin attacked Ukraine after insisting for months there was no plan to do so. Now he says there's no plan to take over.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/30/putin-announces-russian-annexation-of-four-ukrainian-regions
Putin announces Russian annexation of four Ukrainian regions
Putin's word is his bond, huh?
@vivify saidThe peace talks were a major story in March and April and Ukrainian officials discussed them openly. There is no reason to blindly accept your or your article's characterization that they never had any chance of success.
https://novaramedia.com/2022/10/17/no-the-west-didnt-halt-ukraines-peace-talks-with-russia/
[quote]No, the West Didn’t Halt Ukraine’s Peace Talks With Russia
While talks continued in Belarus and Istanbul, Russia’s leadership kept repeating that it would reach the goals of its military campaign: ‘denazification’ (regime change) and ‘demilitarisation’ (the destructi ...[text shortened]... gives up annexed territory, as the every failed diplomatic effort since the Crimean invasion shows.