@teinosuke said
Although the double standard you identify probably does represent hypocrisy on the part of many Westerners (who are no doubt motivated by the logic of "My enemy's enemy is my friend), could the following arguments not be made by someone who is in favour of Uyghur independence but not in favour of the independence of Eastern Ukraine?

1) The indigenous people of East Turke ...[text shortened]... Muslims. With the accidental exception of Taiwan, however, the Chinese empire remains so far intact.

Quite true. Nice post.

Me, myself, am not really a nationalist on any level. And if people want to seperate from the larger community, I’m usually quite suspect. Is the larger community inclusive enough.
If not, then yeah, breaking away is generally inevitable in the long run (or you get violent situations).

Is there an independence movement in the Uyghur community? I don’t really know. It could be that they just want to be treated equally?

My only problem with your post is this concept, that Dutchess has too, that many Westerners see China as an enemy.

It’s like you’re talking about US economics or something. Nobody I know thinks of China as “the enemy”.
Yes. There’s heavy criticism of Chinese politics. But not more so than of US politics, Boris Johnson, Saudi-Arabia, Turkey or Israel.
And generally nobody I know thinks of any of these countries as “the enemy”.

Personally I find their regimes disgusting. But I find a great many regimes disgusting and place serious questions about Europe’s and the Netherlands’ political choices as well.

But an enemy?

As a privacy advisor I take particular interest in China’s social credit system. But also in the privacy shield with the US (although that has been proven to be inadequate, so privacy in the US is no longer guaranteed).

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1. I ignore trump on all serious levels.

2. “The West” is much more than moronic American politics and opinions.

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trump is the laughing stock of the planet.

Yes, a lot of countries fear US reprisals, because they are very nasty and vindictive when it comes to their foreign policies.

I’m not entirely sure that trump blames China for everything. Yes, he blames it for the virus (although it’s so pathetic he’a basically ignored).

Let me return the question: can Dutchess name one European leader who blames China for the virus?

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Name one European leader who has blamed China for the pandemic.

@shavixmir said
Name one European leader who has blamed China for the pandemic.

I hope you’ve brought some sandwiches and a flask.

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When I visited the Crimea (in autumn, 2013, just before the troubles started) I stayed in the old Tatar capital of Bakhchisaray, in a bed and breakfast run by a Crimean Muslim family. Over breakfast, our host narrated the history of her people (who had been the most numerous ethnic group on the peninsula until the early twentieth century). An independent, secular Crimean state was one of many that briefly emerged with the collapse of Tsarist rule in Russia, only to be crushed by the Bolsheviks. It is claimed that in the early years of Soviet rule, by 1933, about 150,000 Crimean Tatars were driven out of the peninisula or killed.

During World War II, the Crimea came under German Occupation, and some Tatars collaborated with the Nazis. In 1944, Stalin, suspicious of collaborators in their ranks, acted with characteristic ruthlessness, deporting the entire Crimean Tatar population to what is now Uzbekistan. They remember this atrocity under the name sürgün, which means “exile” or “banishment”.

“They could take nothing but their Qu'rans and their children,” our host told us. Our host's mother and elder sister were among the deportees; she herself was born not long afterwards, and spent the first forty years of her life in Central Asia. Only with the fall of the Soviet Union had she come back to the Crimea – the home she had never lived in.

“We are not Tatars,” my host insisted. “We are Crimeans. We are at home here. This is where we belong.”

I often think of that lady, and wonder if she is still in Bakhchisaray. Many of the indigenous Crimeans, preferring Ukrainian to Russian rule, fled to mainland Ukraine. The Crimean population of Lviv increased from two to two thousand between 2014 and 2016. Alas, one suspects that this largely secular population continues to face discrimination, now from Ukrainians suspicious of Muslims.

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I expect demographics to be fluid rather than static.

If demographics are fluid rather than static, should borders not also be fluid rather than static?

Surely, Teinosuke must support an independent Wales, right?

Sure, why not? If there was a majority in Wales for independence, I'd happily accept it. I'd also think that, not being Welsh, it was none of my business to have an opinion.

"To many Westerners, the Uyghurs have suddenly become the ONLY Muslims in the world about whom they profess to care and support a bid for an independent Islamic republic."

One might prefer an independent secular republic - although one also might think the choice should be their business.

One wonders how the overwhelming Muslim majority in Kashmir feels, given their repression (with apparent general Western approval) for more than 70 years by India. [...] Does Teinosuke support a 'free' Khalistan, an independent state for Sikhs in the Punjab?

I see no reason why Kashmir, like East Turkestan, should not become an independent nation, if that is what its inhabitants wish. I see no reason either why there should not be an independent state for Sikhs in the Punjab.

The USSR succeeded in detaching Outer Mongolia from China and making it into nominally independent Mongolia (the world's second Communist state), a de facto satellite.

So "Outer" Mongolia was under the control of one empire and then fell under the control of another empire. Of course, the region is now the independent state of Mongolia, an improvement on either colonial alternative.

Your statement ("how foreign powers carved up and took parts of
China" ) could, in that particular case, be rephrased as follows: "how territories inhabited by non-Chinese ethnic groups moved from Chinese imperial control to the control of another imperial power". It's difficult to see why an unbiased observer would have a preference about which imperial power should rule Mongolia. But perhaps you think that China should rule "all under heaven"?

I do NOT, however, regard an independent Uyghur state as any more necessary than independent states for the Basques, Catalans, or many other peoples.

The Basques and Catalans are not being put into re-education camps. I am, however, broadly sympathetic to the independence of the Basque Country and Catalonia from Spain, should there be majority support in those regions for it.

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There is no European leader who has said China is to blame for Corona.

I presume that’s what you’re trying to admit to.