Originally posted by scottishinnzIf you want to bring the Bible in it then it is clearly allowed for a Christian Government to impose the death penalty. 'Thou shalt not kill' is a commandmant that was designed to deter murder. Killing in Self defense is allowed as well. Read the Bible properly.
Not so sure really. I mean GWB is also a committed Christian, and doesn't it say somewhere 'Thou shall NOT kill'. Guess he missed the 'not' there
Originally posted by scottishinnzExcellent .. you understand my point about Lockerbie. Suppose the fuselage fell on your parents home and only you survived to tell the tale ? Would you now have been a bit more supportive of nations that are taking a firm hand with terrorists ?
My friend, I am from Lockerbie originally. My parents still live there to this day. I was there and I watched the fuselage crash to the ground. I need no history lesson from you.
Furthermore, I do think Lockerbie is a good lesson, bacause they caught the perpetrator, or did they. I'm not saying al megrahe is a nice guy, but one man does not wak ...[text shortened]... Al Megrahe was just the fall guy in that instance. Saddam is the fall guy for the WTC attacks.
Better yet .. how do you propose the UN or other interested countries go about ending terrorism ? You already know my view .. Go after them and Kill them !
Whats your solution ?
Originally posted by Rajk999Actually a number of my friends were killed. Thanks for bringing THAT one up. So you see, I do have a vested interest. I've realised over the last 17 years that unilateralism gets you no-where. If you talk to victims of this sort of thing then of course they are angry, but they also want to know why it happened. What drove these people to do these things. In my view it's all part of the whole social dissillusionment thing. These people are hitting back against a far more powerfull foe (even if that foe is unaware it is a foe or it has crapped on someones life). They tend to be desperate people who've had their lives and their dignity taken away from them.
Excellent .. you understand my point about Lockerbie. Suppose the fuselage fell on your parents home and only you survived to tell the tale ? Would you now have been a bit more supportive of nations that are taking a firm hand with terrorists ?
Better yet .. how do you propose the UN or other interested countries go about ending terrorism ? You already know my view .. Go after them and Kill them !
Whats your solution ?
They best way to deal with terrorism? Don't bloody well create it.
Originally posted by Rajk999Well not being terribly religious I'd rather not bring the bible into anything, but since GWB brought religion to the white house....
If you want to bring the Bible in it then it is clearly allowed for a Christian Government to impose the death penalty. 'Thou shalt not kill' is a commandmant that was designed to deter murder. Killing in Self defense is allowed as well. Read the Bible properly.
I assume that state sponsered death penalities are okay then? That must have made the 'J' man feel better. Probably why he didn;t rain down fire and brimstone then...
Once a criminal has been taken out of society he /she can no longer harm that society. Killing this person will not make society any safer. Many of these people have severe mental deficiencies anyway. Recent studies have also suggested that these guys know the difference between right and wrong but do not have the regulatory pathways in their brain to control their outbursts. You're effectively sentencing someone to death because their brain developed in a certain way over which they have little control. Since this type of behaviour is (at least to some extent due to biochemistry rather than personal choice) you're probably not goign to stop others from committing the same crimes.
I wonder though, you say that 'Thou shalt not kill' was designed to deter murder. I thought Gods mind was ineffable? Unless there is something you're not telling us?
Originally posted by scottishinnzFreedom of choice is one of the things God gave all of us and the Bible contains a number of suggestions on how to live. But lets not get into that.
Well not being terribly religious I'd rather not bring the bible into anything, but since GWB brought religion to the white house....
I assume that state sponsered death penalities are okay then? That must have made the 'J' man feel better. Probably why he didn;t rain down fire and brimstone then...
Once a criminal has been taken out of socie ...[text shortened]... r murder. I thought Gods mind was ineffable? Unless there is something you're not telling us?
Not sure what you mean by 'taken out of society'. Death is the only way someone is 'taken out of society'. Anything else and that person is still part of society. They can and do escape, get released earlier. There are dozens of cases where the system has failed and killers killed again and again.
Originally posted by Rajk999So state sponsored murder of convicts is oksy then?
Freedom of choice is one of the things God gave all of us and the Bible contains a number of suggestions on how to live. But lets not get into that.
Not sure what you mean by 'taken out of society'. Death is the only way someone is 'taken out of society'. Anything else and that person is still part of society. They can and do escape, get released earlier. There are dozens of cases where the system has failed and killers killed again and again.
Did you ever read 'Lord of the Rings'? There is a passage in it were Frodo says to Gandalf when discussing Gollem 'He deserves death'. Gandalf replies 'Many who live deserve death, and some who die deserve life - can you give that to them? The be not too hasty to deal out death in punishment.' Seems apt.
Also, have you watched the film 'Life of David Gray'? Perhaps also a valid point.
Originally posted by scottishinnzTaking a criminal out of society at large and putting them into a separate society of people just like them only creates opportunities for increased harm against the members of the separate society.
Once a criminal has been taken out of society he /she can no longer harm that society. Killing this person will not make society any safer.
In turn, if any of those from the separate society are released into the larger society, harm will continue, at a higher rate than before entrance into the separate society.
That's basic math.
By elimination of the criminal, not only is society at large safer, but those so-inclined toward criminal activity are less likely to pursue their latent desires. When that formula is followed, the proofs are evident within the numbers.
Originally posted by scottishinnzThe laughably naive presupposition of this movie virtually eliminates it from consideration. Based purely on the hypothetical, it loses all punch in its sins of omission.
Also, have you watched the film 'Life of David Gray'? Perhaps also a valid point.
A more effective story line would be correcting the judicial process by placing controls within. For instance, visiting the punishment of the condemned on the prosecutors, should the sentence be found in error.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThere has been the death penalty since the man crawled out of the trees and banded together. Has it proven to be a deterant? No. Crime is probably at an all time high. And your math is flawed. You forgot to factor in the detriment towards the well being of your utopian society when you mistakenly kill an innocent man. You also forgot to factor in the revenge factor. Everytime you play God and kill someone, you create another person you will have to kill down the line.
Taking a criminal out of society at large and putting them into a separate society of people just like them only creates opportunities for increased harm against the members of the separate society.
In turn, if any of those from the separate society are released into the larger society, harm will continue, at a higher rate than before entrance into the se ...[text shortened]... their latent desires. When that formula is followed, the proofs are evident within the numbers.
The death penalty has never proven to be a deterant to crime. Your numbers don't add up.
Originally posted by CliffLandinIf, by deterrent, you mean eliminator, then you are correct.
Has it proven to be a deterant? No. Crime is probably at an all time high. And your math is flawed.
However, in societies where the death penalty is evenly applied, criminal activites are positively impacted.
Originally posted by CliffLandinAren't we missing the point slightly? Jail is supposed to be for rehabilitation, not revenge. To help this guy change his / her ways and become a useful member of society.
There has been the death penalty since the man crawled out of the trees and banded together. Has it proven to be a deterant? No. Crime is probably at an all time high. And your math is flawed. You forgot to factor in the detriment towards the well being of your utopian society when you mistakenly kill an innocent man. You also forgot to factor in the rev ...[text shortened]... ne.
The death penalty has never proven to be a deterant to crime. Your numbers don't add up.
I'll admit there arew some crap prisons out there, but there are some good ones too. Ones that are actually working. Still, nothing to do with whether Bush lied or not.
Originally posted by CliffLandinThose aware of historical trends both within the US and without are already fully aware of the statisistical veracity of this claim.
Please back that up with some facts.
Bogging down the essence of the issue that has been many times proven begs the question. Refutation of the obvious earns the burden of proof.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHSorry freaky,
Those aware of historical trends both within the US and without are already fully aware of the statisistical veracity of this claim.
Bogging down the essence of the issue that has been many times proven begs the question. Refutation of the obvious earns the burden of proof.
gotta disagree with you. In the US the death penalty is applied, in the UK, Japan and Germany it is not. The US has both a higher murder rate and more adults prosecuted than any of these other countries. If fact, the US has both the highest total number of prosecutions, and the highest per capita.
Originally posted by scottishinnzbtw my source is
Sorry freaky,
gotta disagree with you. In the US the death penalty is applied, in the UK, Japan and Germany it is not. The US has both a higher murder rate and more adults prosecuted than any of these other countries. If fact, the US has both the highest total number of prosecutions, and the highest per capita.
http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/Crime