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Debates Forum

  1. 25 Oct '12 19:36
    INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Indiana Republican Senate candidate Richard Mourdock refused to apologize Wednesday for saying that when pregnancy results from rape then that is "something God intended." . . .

    http://www.chron.com/news/politics/article/Mourdock-criticized-over-rape-pregnancy-comments-3976341.php


    Rape is the most debilitating and personal crime inflicted on a woman. It kills her soul, incredibly traumatizing her forever.

    No matter what your beliefs on abortion and how sincere those beliefs, it is a war on women to say that the rape victim should have no choice to take the morning after pill, for example, and that government should force a rape victim to share a birth with the rapist and to give birth to the rapist' child.
  2. 25 Oct '12 21:31
    Originally posted by moon1969
    INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Indiana Republican Senate candidate Richard Mourdock refused to apologize Wednesday for saying that when pregnancy results from rape then that is "something God intended." . . .

    http://www.chron.com/news/politics/article/Mourdock-criticized-over-rape-pregnancy-comments-3976341.php


    Rape is the most debilitating and p ...[text shortened]... force a rape victim to share a birth with the rapist and to give birth to the rapist' child.
    I don't agree with this guy, but if you believe abortion is murder then his position makes sense. It isn't a war on women, it's a war on murder. That's his point of view. Your point of view is that two wrongs do, in fact, make a right. Your constant crying over the "war against women" makes you sound like a moron who doesn't have the depth to understand 2 sides of an argument.
  3. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    25 Oct '12 22:08
    Originally posted by dryhump
    I don't agree with this guy, but if you believe abortion is murder then his position makes sense. It isn't a war on women, it's a war on murder. That's his point of view. Your point of view is that two wrongs do, in fact, make a right. Your constant crying over the "war against women" makes you sound like a moron who doesn't have the depth to understand 2 sides of an argument.
    Far more babies die in the U.S. for want of adequate health care than are ever aborted as fetuses. Republicans must either put their money where their mouths are or butt the hell out.
  4. 25 Oct '12 22:16
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Far more babies die in the U.S. for want of adequate health care than are ever aborted as fetuses. Republicans must either put their money where their mouths are or butt the hell out.
    Are you just going to make an assertion like that and not back it up? Please, show me the stats.
  5. 25 Oct '12 22:17 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Far more babies die in the U.S. for want of adequate health care than are ever aborted as fetuses. Republicans must either put their money where their mouths are or butt the hell out.
    wow you guys are really facing some serious issues. These things rarely come to the fore in European politics. Its interesting i myself do not support abortion in any form, its based on a religious belief, but i would never consider that the government also adopt my religious beliefs. Surely it is clear that everyone is a free moral agent? It seems that American politicians are somehow trying to impose their religious beliefs on the electorate and that religion is being used to sway voters. Is there not a distinction between ones religious convictions and ones suitability or qualifications for office?
  6. 25 Oct '12 22:27 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    wow you guys are really facing some serious issues. These things rarely come to the fore in European politics. Its interesting i myself do not support abortion in any form, its based on a religious belief, but i would never consider that the government also adopt my religious beliefs. Surely it is clear that everyone is a free moral agent? It se ...[text shortened]... istinction between ones religious convictions and ones suitability or qualifications for office?
    Your opposition to abortion may be based on religious conviction, but that does not surely mean that everyone who is opposed to abortion is so on religious grounds. There are surely reasonable secular arguments against abortion too.
  7. 25 Oct '12 22:31
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    Your opposition to abortion may be based on religious conviction, but that does not surely mean that everyone who is opposed to abortion is so on religious grounds. There are surely reasonable secular arguments against abortion too.
    I am sure there is, but it seems to me that given a knowledge of American history and particularly of the republican party, religious conviction clearly permeates into the views of politicians. Perhaps our friends can tell us why these politicians hold these particular views.
  8. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    25 Oct '12 22:38
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    Your opposition to abortion may be based on religious conviction, but that does not surely mean that everyone who is opposed to abortion is so on religious grounds. There are surely reasonable secular arguments against abortion too.
    I've never seen one.
  9. 25 Oct '12 22:43 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by dryhump
    I don't agree with this guy, but if you believe abortion is murder then his position makes sense. It isn't a war on women, it's a war on murder. That's his point of view. Your point of view is that two wrongs do, in fact, make a right. Your constant crying over the "war against women" makes you sound like a moron who doesn't have the depth to understand 2 sides of an argument.
    You come across as a moron in not recognizing that forcing a rape victim to give birth to her rapist child against her will is a war on women. No matter if your personal belief is that abortion is murder. Surely you have enough intelligence to understand that the rape victim can decide for herself if it is murder to take the morning after pill. After all, we are not talking about killing a born human being. Get a clue. The one-day old conception is inside her and part of her body, and has no resemblance at all to a human being. No humanoid shape. No pain. No heartbeat. No eyes. No ears. No body parts. No senses. An incredibly tiny piece of tissue.

    I recognize the various sincere beliefs on abortion, but it is stupidity to not recognize that it is a war on women to say the government should forbid the rape victim from taking the morning after pill and force her to give birth to the rapist child.
  10. 25 Oct '12 23:18
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    Your opposition to abortion may be based on religious conviction, but that does not surely mean that everyone who is opposed to abortion is so on religious grounds. There are surely reasonable secular arguments against abortion too.
    "There are surely reasonable secular arguments against abortion too."

    Of course there are, one being that the prospective parents do not want an abortion. From that and some additional premises about personal liberty, we can reason --there is a reasonable secular argument -- against that abortion.

    So what I ask is two things, and I am not saying this as a rhetorical device. I am prepared to agree that there are reasonable secular arguments, if I see them from you or anyone here. It would be useful to the forum to have them presented.

    What are some reasonable secular arguments against abortion in general?

    What are some reasonable secular arguments for enforcing a ban on abortion?

    I'm noting you didn't say there are reasonable secular arguments against limiting abortions. You said "against abortions."
  11. 26 Oct '12 08:36
    Originally posted by moon1969
    You come across as a moron in not recognizing that forcing a rape victim to give birth to her rapist child against her will is a war on women. No matter if your personal belief is that abortion is murder. Surely you have enough intelligence to understand that the rape victim can decide for herself if it is murder to take the morning after pill. After all ...[text shortened]... rape victim from taking the morning after pill and force her to give birth to the rapist child.
    can we establish that its the religious beliefs of these politicians which has led them to adopt this stance?
  12. 26 Oct '12 08:44
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    can we establish that its the religious beliefs of these politicians which has led them to adopt this stance?
    Or the perceived religious beliefs of their target audience/electorate.
  13. 26 Oct '12 08:47 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Far more babies die in the U.S. for want of adequate health care than are ever aborted as fetuses. Republicans must either put their money where their mouths are or butt the hell out.
    What a outrageous claim !
    Where is your evidence ?


    edit:
    •In 2008, approximately 1.21 million abortions took place in the U.S., down from an estimated 1.29 million in 2002, 1.31 million in 2000 and 1.36 million in 1996. From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions have occurred in the U.S. (AGI).

    (Primary abortion statistics in the U.S. are available from two sources, privately from The Guttmacher Institute (AGI) and publicly from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). In 2008 (the most recent year for which CDC data is available),
  14. 26 Oct '12 09:04
    Originally posted by moon1969
    You come across as a moron in not recognizing that forcing a rape victim to give birth to her rapist child against her will is a war on women. No matter if your personal belief is that abortion is murder. Surely you have enough intelligence to understand that the rape victim can decide for herself if it is murder to take the morning after pill. After all ...[text shortened]... rape victim from taking the morning after pill and force her to give birth to the rapist child.
    The three most frequently cited “hard cases” in which some argue abortion might be justified are rape, incest and protecting the life of the mother. However, women rarely report that they are seeking an abortion for any of these reasons:

    Rape: 0.3%

    Incest: 0.03%

    Protection of mother’s life: 0.2%

    In other words, out of 1,000 women procuring abortion, only three cite rape as the primary reason, and only two cite protecting her life as the reason for the abortion. Out of 10,000 women procuring abortion, only three cite incest as a reason.

    Source: Johnston, Wm. Robert. Reasons Given For Having Abortions In The United States. http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html.


    Read more: Abortion Facts - Abortion Facts http://www.whyprolife.com/abortion-facts/#ixzz2AOV8qvBX
  15. 26 Oct '12 09:14
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    The three most frequently cited “hard cases” in which some argue abortion might be justified are rape, incest and protecting the life of the mother. However, women rarely report that they are seeking an abortion for any of these reasons:

    Rape: 0.3%

    Incest: 0.03%

    Protection of mother’s life: 0.2%

    In other words, out of 1,000 women procu ...[text shortened]... ad more: Abortion Facts - Abortion Facts http://www.whyprolife.com/abortion-facts/#ixzz2AOV8qvBX
    Perhaps that may be in part due to the fact that they do not have to cite these reasons in order to procure an abortion procedure.

    Many cases of rape and incest in the general population go unreported.

    The figures for 'endangering the life of the mother' should be much more solid, given that presumably, it is a diagnosis rather than a claim.