@eladar saidAgain, Eladar, the probability argument only applies to doctors for treatment options, not an individual risk assessment for getting COVID. Even though a snake bite won't kill you, you still avoid the dangerous situation by not petting the rattlesnake.
If people knew the actual probability of being hospitalized and probability of death for their age group, you would see many people younger than 45 choosing not the put a genetically engineered virus into their body.
I am arguing for two things...
Accurate information getting out to the public
Individual choice for when and where to wear a mask as well as choice in ge ...[text shortened]... ve effect of injecting this Genetially Modified Virus into your body. I see no need in chancing it.
Does this "individual choice" thing also apply to traffic laws? As the great Sammy Hagar once said, "I can't drive...... 55."
Genetic engineering isn't bad. What's your problem with it? Do you hate insulin? Of course we don't know the long term heath outcomes after virus infection. The symptoms of viral infections can manifest 20-30 years down the road (e.g. shingles) as the virus integrates into your genome. It gets in your brain. I'd much rather get a non-viral non-replicating vaccine. There's no vaccine that's worse than COVID.
You're just fear mongering here on both fronts. Genetic engineering and vaccines are not dangerous. Bears are. Act accordingly.
27 Jun 21
@wildgrass saidIt applies to the individual.
Again, Eladar, the probability argument only applies to doctors for treatment options. Even though a snake bite won't kill you, you still avoid the dangerous situation by not petting the rattlesnake.
Does this "individual choice" thing also apply to traffic laws? As the great Sammy Hagar once said, "I can't drive...... 55."
Genetic engineering isn't bad. What's your p ...[text shortened]... here on both fronts. Genetic engineering and vaccines are not dangerous. Bears are. Act accordingly.
Taking the Genetically Modified Virus is a risk.
Choosing to not take the Genetically Modified Virus is a risk.
The probability of actually getting hospitalized and die from covid if you get it determines if the risk of taking the Genetically Modified Virus is worth it.
It is as simple as that. That is the truth of the matter. Your fabrications are far from the truth.
27 Jun 21
@eladar saidYour stupid advice is literally getting people killed to the extent that others are dumb enough to take it:
If people knew the actual probability of being hospitalized and probability of death for their age group, you would see many people younger than 45 choosing not the put a genetically engineered virus into their body.
I am arguing for two things...
Accurate information getting out to the public
Individual choice for when and where to wear a mask as well as choice in ge ...[text shortened]... ve effect of injecting this Genetially Modified Virus into your body. I see no need in chancing it.
"And only about 150 of the more than 18,000 COVID-19 deaths in May were in fully vaccinated people. That translates to about 0.8%, or five deaths per day on average."
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187
Nice work.
27 Jun 21
@eladar saidMy kids are no longer in elementary school so it's fine for me to speed through a school zone at 8 am?
It applies to the individual.
Taking the Genetically Modified Virus is a risk.
Choosing to not take the Genetically Modified Virus is a risk.
The probability of actually getting hospitalized and die from covid if you get it determines if the risk of taking the Genetically Modified Virus is worth it.
It is as simple as that. That is the truth of the matter. Your fabrications are far from the truth.
27 Jun 21
@no1marauder saidDo you know the long term effects of having the genetically modfied virus in a person's body? It could take years to see negative results.
Your stupid advice is literally getting people killed to the extent that others are dumb enough to take it:
"And only about 150 of the more than 18,000 COVID-19 deaths in May were in fully vaccinated people. That translates to about 0.8%, or five deaths per day on average."
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187
Nice work.
27 Jun 21
@wildgrass saidYour questions have absolutely nothing to do with this.
My kids are no longer in elementary school so it's fine for me to speed through a school zone at 8 am?
By your logic I suppose it is ok to kill other people's kids. There is nothing immoral or illegal about getting sick.
If you want to only be around people who have been vaccinated, then make decisions to do so. You can stay in your house or only go to specific safe locations. You can live your life in fear if you wish, but do not push your irrational fear on others.
@eladar saidIt could but there's no evidence it will.
Do you know the long term effects of having the genetically modfied virus in a person's body? It could take years to see negative results.
There is some evidence that COVID19 might have persistent lingering effects.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-long-haulers-long-term-effects-of-covid19
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351
That includes children: https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/HealthU/2021/05/19/how-covid-19-affects-kids-long-term/
And these people are dead now, needlessly.
27 Jun 21
@no1marauder saidThis is what I mean. You do not know.
It could but there's no evidence it will.
There is some evidence that COVID19 might have persistent lingering effects.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-long-haulers-long-term-effects-of-covid19
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351
That includ ...[text shortened]... /05/19/how-covid-19-affects-kids-long-term/
And these people are dead now, needlessly.
In any case, we do see some negative outcomes from getting the vaccine today. In Israel they are finding higher rates of thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura in people who get the vaccine.
29 Jun 21
@eladar saidIn 1919 hundreds of people who refused to wear masks were locked up. Backlashes against public safety regulation have a long history, but, in a society, one persons actions affect the other person. That's why we have rules. The rules might not be universally liked, but that's a lot different argument than "manipulation" or deliberately misrepresenting facts. My solidly conservative family used to attend rallies opposing seat belt regulation. The idea of tying someone up against their will rubbed people the wrong way. People argued that getting thrown clear from your car in a crash was SAFER than staying securely inside your car. This was obviously false.
Your questions have absolutely nothing to do with this.
By your logic I suppose it is ok to kill other people's kids. There is nothing immoral or illegal about getting sick.
If you want to only be around people who have been vaccinated, then make decisions to do so. You can stay in your house or only go to specific safe locations. You can live your life in fear if you wish, but do not push your irrational fear on others.
There's precedent and understanding for your sentiment. However, it is just plain wrong.
29 Jun 21
@wildgrass
I had no problem wearing a mask at work this year. I do not know why you think I would not wear a mask if asked to do so, as long as it is everyone.
I will have an issue if they try to do the you can go without a mask only if you have had the shot stuff. Everyone who wants a shot has gotten one. No need for mask, afterall, getting the shot all but protects you from getting sick and if you do get sick you will not get nearly as sick.
The only ones who will get sick and maybe end up in the hospital or dead are those who choose to do so.
29 Jun 21
@eladar saidMasks are good too. But the #1 way to prevent COVID infection, severe illness, deaths and spread is vaccination. That's how we got rid of polio. We vaccinated everyone.
@wildgrass
I had no problem wearing a mask at work this year. I do not know why you think I would not wear a mask if asked to do so, as long as it is everyone.
I will have an issue if they try to do the you can go without a mask only if you have had the shot stuff. Everyone who wants a shot has gotten one. No need for mask, afterall, getting the shot all but protects ...[text shortened]... only ones who will get sick and maybe end up in the hospital or dead are those who choose to do so.
@wildgrass saidIt is possible your cure is worse than the problem and I do not believe so many people should be guinea pigs.
Masks are good too. But the #1 way to prevent COVID infection, severe illness, deaths and spread is vaccination. That's how we got rid of polio. We vaccinated everyone.
Btw, the real difference between our positions is this.
I believe people should have a choice in taking the vaccine.
You believe the government should force everyone to take the vaccine.
I believe we are citizens of a free society, you believe we are subjects of a nanny state.
@eladar said
It is possible your cure is worse than the problem and I do not believe so many people should be guinea pigs.
Btw, the real difference between our positions is this.
I believe people should have a choice in taking the vaccine.
You believe the government should force everyone to take the vaccine.
I believe we are citizens of a free society, you believe we are subjects of a nanny state.
Btw, the real difference between our positions is this.
I do not believe the gov't should mandate vaccination. You made that up. More fear mongering.
The real difference between our positions?
In this conversation, you've stated that "Of course they never give the numbers as to what percent of kids end up in hospitals, just that some do. This is data manipulation. If they gave the actual numbers, it would result in fewer numbers of kids getting vaccinated." You wrote this even though the CDC report we are discussing gave the exact numbers you're claiming are omitted.
You've dismissed the problem of flu virus by saying that "influenza does not kill large numbers of people". I disagree with that.
You've stated that "history tells us that this virus would end naturally in a 3 year period even without vaccines". This is historically ignorant.
You then made illogical leaps from saying that the huge expense of mitigating human-bear encounters is justified (even though the statistical risk to human life is infinitesimal) but acknowledging the death toll you think that COVID was never a big enough risk to mask up? How does that make sense to you? The likelihood of a bear killing you is thousands of times less likely than COVID.
Let's work big to small here.
30 Jun 21
@wildgrass saidIf you do not believe the government should mandate a vaccine, then we have no real disagreement, just different opinions.Btw, the real difference between our positions is this.
I do not believe the gov't should mandate vaccination. You made that up. More fear mongering.
The real difference between our positions?
In this conversation, you've stated that "Of course they never give the numbers as to what percent of kids end up in hospitals, just that some do. This is data m ...[text shortened]... of a bear killing you is thousands of times less likely than COVID.
Let's work big to small here.
Glad to see you believe people should have the choice.
01 Jul 21
@eladar saidI pointed out 3 fundamental disagreements. We disagree that data is being deliberately manipulated by the CDC. We disagree with what a "large number of people is". And we disagree fundamentally on the relative risks of various threats to humanity. On the one hand you are willing to put enormous effort into preventing a threat that doesn't kill anyone, but the influenza threat that kills a pro baseball stadium worth of US citizens every year is not worth taking appropriate precautions to prevent.
If you do not believe the government should mandate a vaccine, then we have no real disagreement, just different opinions.
Glad to see you believe people should have the choice.
If we're going to chalk up 30k dead bodies to influenza every year as "natural" then we should let the bears roam free.
Give the people the choice.