@ullr saidThe argument of those opposed to NATO intervention regarding Putin’s nuclear threat has no internal logic because it gives Putin carte blanch to invade any nato country he wishes to or he could destroy their cities with longe range missile artillery.
Thanks for this post. Reading this thread I feel like the world has gone mad with the exception of the few (like Kevcvs57) who seem to be shoveling proverbial s@&t against the irrational tide against idiotic Putin apologists. The war crimes are real. The evidence is overwhelming and the surface has just been scratched. The full horror of what has happened already in this unj ...[text shortened]... seen of the Russian military these past few weeks it would be an absolute rout of epic proportions.
According to them we must not confront Russia directly for fear of a nuclear winter.
They also seem to forget that the Russians probably do not want to be incinerated either.
The sad thing is we will let Putin grind the Ukrainian people down with a war of attrition all the while he will gauging that he could probably get away with attacking the Baltic countries or Poland because we are too cowardly to confront him.
We should wait until the majority of his forces are in the south east of Ukraine then launch some shock and awe along that coastline whilst well equipped Ukrainian forces descend on them from the north and west.
@kevcvs57
"The satellite, video and eye witness / victim accounts are conclusive.
You are maliciously choosing not to believe the evidence..."
The satellite images are NOT conclusive. The dates can be faked, and images can be manufactured. These images have to be analyzed by expert groups which are entirely independent of Russia, Ukraine, the US and other parties involved in the conflict. Other satellite providers should be invoked. The satellite images and other evidence should be compared.
Concerning eye-witnesses. There are awfully many eye-witnesses of the war crimes of the Ukrainian Azov battalion, for example, from Mariupol. All Russian military channels regularly show such videos. If you do not believe such eye-witnesses, then why do you believe the eye-witnesses of the Ukrainian side concerning Bucha? Do you believe that anyone in Bucha, after the Russian Army has left and the Ukrainian Army has come in, would ever witness that there were no bodies on the street yesterday and that the bodies appeared at 5 in the morning? Anyone knows that such witnesses would be murdered just like, recently, Kirkorov was murdered.
You should rather question what the names of the killed people in Bucha were? What nationality was each person? Then, one could find out the living places and the addresses of these people. And, if most of the people killed were Russians, then it is probable that the Ukrainian security service SBU committed those murders after the Russian Army left the town.
You should also ask, how it is probable that there are a lot of dead bodies on the streets for weeks and still no videos were uploaded already weeks ago? Nowadays, it cannot be avoided: if there are a lot of people killed and the bodies are on the streets, then sooner or later, the videos will be uploaded. If the videos had been uploaded long before the Russian Army left the town, the newspapers would write about it already a long ago before Russian Army left the town.
You are saying that I am maliciously choosing not to believe the evidence.
First, what you are doing is a mathematical/logical mistake. There is some confirming evidence and also some refuting, contrary evidence. All such evidence should be analyzed in a balanced manner. There is no such thing as ONE and CONCLUSIVE evidence as yet.
Second, very obviously, it is you who refuses to take important evidence into account. Western politicians, Western media - have indeed blocked and ignored the contrary evidence.
The most curious thing is that some of that "Russian propaganda" is Ukrainian information indeed! Russia shows the mayor of the town speaking a day after the Russian Army has left the town. That Ukrainian major did not say anything at all about the killed civilians. Russia also shows the video made by Ukrainian Army when it entered the town and was searching the town. Ukraine itself made that video public. It is 7 minutes video, taken from machines and even drones. The streets of the town are shown. No dead bodies appeared in that video. Again, this video must be taken into account and thoroughly compared with other materials. Whether different streets were shown in these videos or one and the same street appeared in both videos (one - without bodies, the other one - with bodies).
Finally, Russia has showed Ukrainian TV showing a video of the bodies on the streets, while one of the bodies moved right after the TV machine had passed it.
This is an explanation to other readers, an explanation of why @kevcvs57 talks nonsense.
To @kevcvs57 itself, I have nothing else to say than to repeat myself: he/she is a criminal.
@eintaluj saidSo you are choosing to believe the regime that said they were not going to invade Ukraine the day before they did?
@kevcvs57
"The satellite, video and eye witness / victim accounts are conclusive.
You are maliciously choosing not to believe the evidence..."
The satellite images are NOT conclusive. The dates can be faked, and images can be manufactured. These images have to be analyzed by expert groups which are entirely independent of Russia, Ukraine, the US and other parties inv ...[text shortened]... se.
To @kevcvs57 itself, I have nothing else to say than to repeat myself: he/she is a criminal.
All those checks you are demanding will be done in a forensic way by the international agencies that do those forensic checks.
As it stands Russia was in control of those areas when the bodies appeared on the streets, they were in control of those areas when eye witnesses claimed war crimes were committed o their loved ones.
You can put your tv on every night and see Russian missiles, shells and bombs slamming into residential areas just like they did in Chechnya and just as they are still doing in Syria.
You stretch credulity when you claim some kind of equality regarding the veracity of reporting from international media outlets and Russian state propaganda machines.
As I say you are perfectly free to choose to believe or disbelieve what you will, I choose to believe the same people that informed me about Donald Trump trying to overturn a legitimate election, the reality of covid, the reality of climate change and the reality that Bill Gates is definitely not putting microchips in covid vaccines and 5g towers are not spreading covid.
I believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Putin’s invasion force is committing war crimes against the civilian population of Ukraine!
@Metal-Brain
Going with Putin to the end it seems.
Tell me, what will you do when they start finding the sicko Russians who killed THOUSANDS of civilians, tying hands behind back and summarily executing them and leaving them lying in the street where they were assassinated?
Oh yeah, I forgot, you would just RE puke the Putin tale that those dead folks were just actors and the truly alturistic Russians would NEVER do missile attacks on pure civilian targets like children's hospitals, now SPECIFICALLY targeted, maternity hospitals with pregnant women inside.
Yeah, Bush did all that and a hundred times more, right, Comrade Metal Head?
@EintaluJ
Well then, when are you going to move to Moscow to help that humanitarian effort by Putin to kill all those OBVIOUS Nazi's?
I assume you would say this is fake news:
Intercepted radio showing Russian military discussing killing of civilians.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/07/russian-soldiers-discussed-killing-civilians-in-radio-intercepts
Yeah, OBVIOUS fake news, right?
So all those hundreds of thousands of destroyed homes bombed BECAUSE they were civilians, I assume you would think that is the only way to conduct a war, killing innocent civilians. I guess if you kill all 40 odd million Ukranians then the war would be over and the rewriting of history will begin.
So tick off the reasons you think Russia attacking Ukraine is justified.
And since you claim to have a Phd in philosophy, you would NEVER pump in Whatabouthim ism's right?
@sonhouse saidHow many civilians were killed in the Iraq war?
@Metal-Brain
Going with Putin to the end it seems.
Tell me, what will you do when they start finding the sicko Russians who killed THOUSANDS of civilians, tying hands behind back and summarily executing them and leaving them lying in the street where they were assassinated?
Oh yeah, I forgot, you would just RE puke the Putin tale that those dead folks were just actors ...[text shortened]... egnant women inside.
Yeah, Bush did all that and a hundred times more, right, Comrade Metal Head?
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@kevcvs57 saidYeah,all that's true......BUT,
The argument of those opposed to NATO intervention regarding Putin’s nuclear threat has no internal logic because it gives Putin carte blanch to invade any nato country he wishes to or he could destroy their cities with longe range missile artillery.
According to them we must not confront Russia directly for fear of a nuclear winter.
They also seem to forget that the Russi ...[text shortened]... along that coastline whilst well equipped Ukrainian forces descend on them from the north and west.
this nutcase has a finger on 'the button.'
@jimm619 saidNo matter what we do or don’t do he’s going to be a nutcase with his finger in the button.
Yeah,all that's true......BUT,
this nutcase has a finger on 'the button.'
Our best bet might be to call his bluff and more importantly the bluff of those around him who are probably sane but just cold blooded opportunist’s.
I know you didn’t mean it literally but it’s important to note that Putin would need the cooperation of lots of ordinary Russians in order to unleash Armageddon and not many have a place in the luxury bunker.
@kevcvs57 saidI said:
So you are choosing to believe the regime that said they were not going to invade Ukraine the day before they did?
All those checks you are demanding will be done in a forensic way by the international agencies that do those forensic checks.
As it stands Russia was in control of those areas when the bodies appeared on the streets, they were in control of those areas ...[text shortened]... ubt that Putin’s invasion force is committing war crimes against the civilian population of Ukraine!
"The satellite images are not conclusive. (...)"
kevcvs57 says:
"So you are CHOOSING to believe the regime that said they were not going to invade Ukraine the day before they did?"
It is impossible to talk with such a person who completely ignores your arguments, distorts your explanations and slanders you.
It is like playing chess with a person who makes invalid moves.
Among other things, that person is like the one who argues concerning the chess position, that if you say that White is not clearly winning then you said that White was clearly losing.
There are three possible results of the chess game:
- White wins;
- Black wins;
- The game is a draw.
Concerning the proposition (assertion) P there are two possibilities:
- the proposition P is true;
- the proposition P is false.
However, KNOWLEDGE concerning the proposition P has at least THREE possibilities:
- I know that P and, therefore, P is true.
- I know that not-P and, therefore, P is false.
- I do not know whether P or not-P.
Thus, if I say that P is not conclusively proved as yet, it does not mean that I say that P is conclusively refuted.
If to use probability calculus, there are infinitely many possibilities between the probability 0 and the probability 1. If new evidence is obtained, the probabilities are updated.
Thus, one can consistently say that one thinks that with the probability 0.5 (i.e. 50 percent) Russian Army murdered civilians in Bucha, and after soma new evidence and new analyses have been presented, ona can say that now, one thinks that with the probability 0.75 Russian Army murdered civilians in Bucha.
kevcvs57 repeats the logical mistake inherent in the current US propaganda, recently explicitly used by one US highest officials:
"If you do not believe blindly the US propaganda, it follows that you believe blindly Russian propaganda."
It sounds like terrorist Lenin saying:
"If you do not support us and you are neutral, it means that you are our enemy."
Such US propaganda is highly similar to the Medieval Age and Inquisition.
A free world must resist such an ideology as it leads to totalitarian regimes.
@sonhouse said"Well then, when are you going to move to Moscow to help that humanitarian effort by Putin to kill all those OBVIOUS Nazi's?
@EintaluJ
Well then, when are you going to move to Moscow to help that humanitarian effort by Putin to kill all those OBVIOUS Nazi's?
I assume you would say this is fake news:
Intercepted radio showing Russian military discussing killing of civilians.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/07/russian-soldiers-discussed-killing-civilians-in-radio-intercepts
Y ...[text shortened]...
And since you claim to have a Phd in philosophy, you would NEVER pump in Whatabouthim ism's right?
I assume you would say this is fake news:
Intercepted radio showing Russian military discussing killing of civilians.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/07/russian-soldiers-discussed-killing-civilians-in-radio-intercepts"
You are an uncivilized criminal as you are slandering me.
Your propagandistic demagougery is based on the logical mistake of conflating the terms "false" and "unproved".
As well you could say that I claimed that Earth is flat and 2 + 2 = 5 and other such things.
Don't put your own paranoic thoughts into my mouth!
You are attributing to me such elementary logical mistakes that you are yourself unavoidably making in your undereducated mind.
@Metal-Brain
Tis video is authentic. The main participant has confessed it in his interview and Ukrainian newspaper Inforesist published it, therefore, the persons are authenticated and this happens not to be Kremlin propaganda and fake news.
https://inforesist.org/komandir-gruzinskogo-legiona-posle-buchi-zayavil-chto-ego-podrazdelenie-ne-budet-brat-v-plen-rossijskih-okkupantov/
@eintaluj saidYeah because Ukraine unlike Russia is not a fascist state the truth of this war crime has come out into the open immediately.
@Metal-Brain
Tis video is authentic. The main participant has confessed it in his interview and Ukrainian newspaper Inforesist published it, therefore, the persons are authenticated and this happens not to be Kremlin propaganda and fake news.
https://inforesist.org/komandir-gruzinskogo-legiona-posle-buchi-zayavil-chto-ego-podrazdelenie-ne-budet-brat-v-plen-rossijskih-okkupantov/
I wonder when the Kremlin will take ownership of the crimes committed by the Wagner Group of Russian mercenaries under the direct command of Putin now that the German security forces have intercepted radio comms of them discussing the deliberate killing of civilians.
The satellite images are only inconclusive if your determined to whitewash the Putin regimes crimes in Ukraine you will also need to deny the victim statements, eyewitness accounts and the news footage of the shelling, bombing and missile strikes on obvious civilian targets
Stop lying, stop being stupid and stop being an agent for the homicidal regime in Moscow.
@kevcvs57
The head of the execution is Georgian mercenary Mamuka Mamulachvili (Мамука Мамулашвили). Someone took a video of that execution and shared it on some Ukrainian military channels on Telegram. It was noticed and shared on several Russian military channels on Telegram. Special programs were used to identify Mamulachvili - the head of the Georgian Brigade in Ukraine and also the head of foreign mercenaries in Ukraine. Finally, the Russian Defence Ministry shared a video of the war crime.
Nothing happened. Everything was denied and ignored.
But Mamulachvili himself agreed to give an interview to one Russian opposition TV channel. He admitted the war crime and declared that this was how his regiment is working: they are not taking the prisoners and they are killing all the Russians. Indeed, they took prisoners but murdered them.
Only then, did one Ukrainian newspaper - Inforesist - publish a story about it.
Then, The New York Times also published a story about it, but with some mistakes. For example, it was not the Ukrainians operating in that video.
But the Ukrainian government today still denied the case calling it Russian propaganda.
Concerning the Bucha case, however, not everything is so clear as yet. Russian information and explanations have been ignored and suppressed. Many questions have remained unanswered. There is more time needed to conclusively and neutrally decide what happened. The Mamulachvili case, in turn, is clear as he himself admitted that it is he on the video, and a Ukrainian (not Russian) newspaper confirmed the identity of his person.