The immunity gap

@sh76 said
Okay.

So I'm saying closing schools (and keeping them closed) is/was a bad idea.

You're saying it was partially Trump's fault.

Fine. Maybe. Whatever.

I also think part of the decision to keep schools closed in some places was informed by a desire to spite Trump (talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face).

We're not really arguing.

It's a cautionary tale for next time. Closing schools should be the last resort, not the first resort.

How many cases, hospitalizations and deaths were avoided because many school districts did not reopen during the Fall 2020 semester, a time when COVID was still rampant and no vaccine yet existed?

What effect on test scores of schoolchildren would the pandemic have had irrespective of whether schools were closed for some portion of it or not?

You haven't even addressed these issues, nevermind give a coherent answer to either question. Closing of most schools during Fall 2020 was probably one of the wisest public health decisions ever made with costs that were likely minimal.

@no1marauder said
How many cases, hospitalizations and deaths were avoided because many school districts did not reopen during the Fall 2020 semester, a time when COVID was still rampant and no vaccine yet existed?

What effect on test scores of schoolchildren would the pandemic have had irrespective of whether schools were closed for some portion of it or not?

You haven't even addre ...[text shortened]... as probably one of the wisest public health decisions ever made with costs that were likely minimal.

vax doesn't do crap except increase your risk of vax injury. The horsefacelyingkuntNZprimeminister said if you take the juice you may still catch covid but you will not get sick and you will not die. We now see that is 180 degrees opposite to the truth.

How about you answer what good it was (other than terrifying them) to force ineffectual masks on children.

@wajoma said
vax doesn't do crap except increase your risk of vax injury. The horsefacelyingkuntNZprimeminister said if you take the juice you may still catch covid but you will not get sick and you will not die. We now see that is 180 degrees opposite to the truth.

How about you answer what good it was (other than terrifying them) to force ineffectual masks on children.

I don't regard your or any other anti-vaxxer's ravings to be worth responding to.

@no1marauder said
I don't regard your or any other anti-vaxxer's ravings to be worth responding to.

Primarily pro-choice rather than anti-vaxx when it comes to medical experiments and an advocate for the medical principle 'first, do no harm'. Started out 50/50 on the seizure syrup but as soon as the bullying started began to ask questions. You want the juice? go ahead take as many as you like but you can pay for it and the consequences. I'm glad I didn't take it.

You have no more proof the experimental clot shot shot did any good in regard to the flu than I have that it did none. The proof of vax injury is there for anyone to see. (and for me, to personally know)

@wajoma said
Primarily pro-choice rather than anti-vaxx when it comes to medical experiments and an advocate for the medical principle 'first, do no harm'. Started out 50/50 on the seizure syrup but as soon as the bullying started began to ask questions. You want the juice? go ahead take as many as you like but you can pay for it and the consequences. I'm glad I didn't take it.

You h ...[text shortened]... it did none. The proof of vax injury is there for anyone to see. (and for me, to personally know)

I've wasted enough time with uneducated loonies who have talked themselves into believing that know more about diseases, vaccines and pandemics then public health experts who have toiled in the field for decades.

I also have no intention of further ridiculing the idiotic idea that individuals have some sort of "right" to spread deadly, contagious diseases to others.

So we really have nothing to discuss on these matters.

@no1marauder said
I've wasted enough time with uneducated loonies who have talked themselves into believing that know more about diseases, vaccines and pandemics then public health experts who have toiled in the field for decades.

I also have no intention of further ridiculing the idiotic idea that individuals have some sort of "right" to spread deadly, contagious diseases to others.

So we really have nothing to discuss on these matters.

I agree, you shouldn't be able to knowingly spread deadly diseases. I think there's something to cover the situation of people that are HIV positive knowingly having, for example, unprotected sex with uninfected people.

But justice is founded on the principle 'innocent until proven guilty'.

And of course even the most fervent state worshipping addict acknowledges that the vax did not stop transmission. About the best they can claim is it may have reduced the effect of the flu, by how much and, if any, is completely unknown. As are the long term side effects of the seizure syrup unknown. And therefore there should have been no coercion to take the juice, vestiges of that coercion still in effect in NZ and Aus.

If a person knowingly goes about infecting others with a communicable disease (vaxxed or pure blood) there should be consequences. The lyinghorsefacequntNZprimeminister was at one time positive for the flu, if she passed it on to anyone she should pay the price too.

@no1marauder said
How many cases, hospitalizations and deaths were avoided because many school districts did not reopen during the Fall 2020 semester, a time when COVID was still rampant and no vaccine yet existed?

What effect on test scores of schoolchildren would the pandemic have had irrespective of whether schools were closed for some portion of it or not?

You haven't even addre ...[text shortened]... as probably one of the wisest public health decisions ever made with costs that were likely minimal.

Nobody knows the answers to those questions because nobody seems to have really studied them, but the consensus seems to be that open schools have never been big covid spreaders.

Here are some articles that were written at the time, without the benefit of hindsight:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/schools-arent-superspreaders/616669/

https://adc.bmj.com/content/105/7/618

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/11/20/covid-19-schools-data-reopening-safety/

===Closing of most schools during Fall 2020 was probably one of the wisest public health decisions ever made with costs that were likely minimal.===

Yikes. We're really so far apart on this issue that it's almost inevitable that any discussion on it will just be talking past each other. You think it was one of the wisest decisions ever made and I think it was one of the dumbest decisions ever made.

@sh76 said
Nobody knows the answers to those questions because nobody seems to have really studied them, but the consensus seems to be that open schools have never been big covid spreaders.

Here are some articles that were written at the time, without the benefit of hindsight:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/schools-arent-superspreaders/616669/

https://adc.bmj.co ...[text shortened]... was one of the wisest decisions ever made and I think it was one of the dumbest decisions ever made.

I don’t get this, on any common sense level schools and school children are fantastic little virus and bug carriers, it’s happening here in the UK right now with foot & mouth disease and a flu strain that are both coming out of schools and into the wider community.

@kevcvs57 said
I don’t get this, on any common sense level schools and school children are fantastic little virus and bug carriers, it’s happening here in the UK right now with foot & mouth disease and a flu strain that are both coming out of schools and into the wider community.

Children are less susceptible to covid than they are to many other URI diseases. Nobody knows precisely why but this has been known since early 2020. I have a theory and that is that covid seems to affect children more in the GI system than in the UR system, making it much less spreadable by children breathing than adults breathing. But regardless, flu and colds seem to be spread in schools much more efficiently than is covid.

@sh76 said
Children are less susceptible to covid than they are to many other URI diseases. Nobody knows precisely why but this has been known since early 2020. I have a theory and that is that covid seems to affect children more in the GI system than in the UR system, making it much less spreadable by children breathing than adults breathing. But regardless, flu and colds seem to be spread in schools much more efficiently than is covid.

Yeah I get that but kids spreading the thing to parents and worse grandparents and out into the wider community. Schools are like massive Petri dishes for most communicable disease. It’s not their fault but if I wanted to curb the spread of something and I could only shut one thing it would be schools.

@kevcvs57 said
Yeah I get that but kids spreading the thing to parents and worse grandparents and out into the wider community. Schools are like massive Petri dishes for most communicable disease. It’s not their fault but if I wanted to curb the spread of something and I could only shut one thing it would be schools.

But kids don't spread it to adults as much as adults spread it to each other. If you want to stop spread of colds and RSV, sure, schools would be the first things to close (it would be a horrendous move in cost/benefit analysis, of course).

If you want to stop covid spread, the first thing you would probably close are night clubs and sports bars.

At this point, it makes no difference. Covid is baked into the virus cycle as much as any flu, RSV or common cold. Unless you're planning to shut down forever, closing things doesn't do anything but postpone some cases until you stop shutting down (which was the point of this thread).

@sh76 said
But kids don't spread it to adults as much as adults spread it to each other. If you want to stop spread of colds and RSV, sure, schools would be the first things to close (it would be a horrendous move in cost/benefit analysis, of course).

If you want to stop covid spread, the first thing you would probably close are night clubs and sports bars.

At this point, it makes no ...[text shortened]... anything but postpone some cases until you stop shutting down (which was the point of this thread).

You're not talking just about "this point"; you're ridiculously asserting that schools should have remained open when COVID was still rampant and there was no vaccine yet available.

I know it was a bit inconvenient to be deprived of your babysitters for a while, but you haven't made a whiff of an argument why they would have been worth the thousands or tens of thousands of deaths not to mention the increase in hospitalizations and cases leaving all schools open in Fall 2020 would have caused.

@sh76 said
Okay.

So I'm saying closing schools (and keeping them closed) is/was a bad idea.

You're saying it was partially Trump's fault.

Fine. Maybe. Whatever.

I also think part of the decision to keep schools closed in some places was informed by a desire to spite Trump (talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face).

We're not really arguing.

It's a cautionary tale for next time. Closing schools should be the last resort, not the first resort.

If you want a lesson for the next time, " do things different" is the wrong one. The bug will be different too. It will infect different people and be more/less contagious and more/less debilitating illness. The response must be measured against the threat.

That's what was missing. No leadership to provide this guidance. A COVID task force constantly needled and undermined by the man at the top. No plan Stan.

And the public health officials who keep schools locked just to spite trump? Do you really think these people exist? Hundreds of people who know the permanent damage being done to kids is not justified, but choosing to do so anyway because of one dumb orange man? This seems like an absurd premise.

Imagine it the other way around. Trump administration provided clear reopening guidelines, acknowledged risk, offered resources and cover for school officials in exchange for reopening. There would have been a huge political fallout but it would have been a much different outcome in terms of kids education.

@no1marauder said
You're not talking just about "this point"; you're ridiculously asserting that schools should have remained open when COVID was still rampant and there was no vaccine yet available.

I know it was a bit inconvenient to be deprived of your babysitters for a while, but you haven't made a whiff of an argument why they would have been worth the thousands or tens of thousand ...[text shortened]... the increase in hospitalizations and cases leaving all schools open in Fall 2020 would have caused.

"thousands or tens of thousands of death"

Also known as: pulling numbers out of your ass.

Don't want to send your kids to school then don't send your kids to school.