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@no1marauder saidI do not think we should judge how a nation that has been dominated by a bigger politically, economically and territorially aggressive neighbour frees itself from that domination, what matters more is how that nation conducts its politics going forward.
Change in democratic countries should be done by Constitutional processes and/or elections not violent coups.
I thought NATO should have been disbanded after the fall of the Soviet Union. It's aggressive forays into multiple nations since then leaves me even more convinced of that.
Even if the west had treated the ex Soviets with a modicum of respect we might be living in a much brighter world and certainly a much safer Europe now, but largely due to us doing the other thing we have another tsar to deal with instead.
@kevcvs57 saidThe repercussions of the 2014 coup and the West's rapid approval of it are part of the mosaic that have led to the present crisis.
I do not think we should judge how a nation that has been dominated by a bigger politically, economically and territorially aggressive neighbour frees itself from that domination, what matters more is how that nation conducts its politics going forward.
Even if the west had treated the ex Soviets with a modicum of respect we might be living in a much brighter world and cert ...[text shortened]... r Europe now, but largely due to us doing the other thing we have another tsar to deal with instead.
Sure, it's easier simply to assign a bad guy, label him another Hitler and rattle the sabers but resolution of the situation will require an acknowledgement of historical facts and some accommodation of Russian interests and grievances.
@no1marauder saidSome accommodation certainly, given that Crimea was gifted to Ukraine by the Soviets and its strategic importance maybe that claim should be recognised by Ukraine.
The repercussions of the 2014 coup and the West's rapid approval of it are part of the mosaic that have led to the present crisis.
Sure, it's easier simply to assign a bad guy, label him another Hitler and rattle the sabers but resolution of the situation will require an acknowledgement of historical facts and some accommodation of Russian interests and grievances.
I haven’t labelled anyone a second hitler as far as I know but the idea promulgated by this thread that Ukraine is a neo nazi state is a lie taken straight from RT and other propaganda organs of the Kremlin that’s why MB is running with it.
Putin, to all intents and purposes is a dictator, he brooks no serious opposition and he is milking Russia like a prize cow.
The idea that the pro Russian premier was the innocent democrat ousted in a thuggish coup is still laughable. He refused to sign an agreement that had been negotiated and agreed upon by the Ukrainian people and the EU. He did not go back to the people for a referendum on the issue he simply got his orders from Putin and carried them out. That was why he faced an overwhelming wave of public anger and eventual revolution by the people of Ukraine.
Coup’s do not normally get carried out by, and applauded by the vast majority of the citizens, I think we need a less derogatory word to describe that event.
But yes we should accommodate Russia in any way we can that does not jeopardise any other states security or sovereignty, good luck getting Putin to agree to that though because he thinks European security means Europe being carved up l between the US and The Russian empire like Poland was between Hitler and Stalin.
@kevcvs57 said"Ukraine is a neo nazi state is a lie taken straight from RT and other propaganda organs of the Kremlin that’s why MB is running with it. "
Some accommodation certainly, given that Crimea was gifted to Ukraine by the Soviets and its strategic importance maybe that claim should be recognised by Ukraine.
I haven’t labelled anyone a second hitler as far as I know but the idea promulgated by this thread that Ukraine is a neo nazi state is a lie taken straight from RT and other propaganda organs of the Kremlin that’ ...[text shortened]... e being carved up l between the US and The Russian empire like Poland was between Hitler and Stalin.
I didn't say neo nazi state. Stop misquoting me.
If Putin is a dictator why would he need to assassinate political opponents? Don't dictators rig their elections so that is not necessary?
The USA gave support to neo nazis in Ukraine. That is a fact.
@metal-brain saidDidn't you write the title of this thread?
I didn't say neo nazi state. Stop misquoting me.
"US installed Neo-Nazi Government in Ukraine"
You really love to twist facts to suit your little rabbit hole, don't you?
@metal-brain saidStop lying and stop being stupid Ivanovic
"Ukraine is a neo nazi state is a lie taken straight from RT and other propaganda organs of the Kremlin that’s why MB is running with it. "
I didn't say neo nazi state. Stop misquoting me.
If Putin is a dictator why would he need to assassinate political opponents? Don't dictators rig their elections so that is not necessary?
The USA gave support to neo nazis in Ukraine. That is a fact.
@metal-brain saidYea and one way he rigs them is by labelling opposition news outlets as ‘Foreign Agents’ and having other political opposition imprisoned on trumped up charges usually concerning financial impropriety, this from the guy that heads the biggest money laundering operation in the world.
"Ukraine is a neo nazi state is a lie taken straight from RT and other propaganda organs of the Kremlin that’s why MB is running with it. "
I didn't say neo nazi state. Stop misquoting me.
If Putin is a dictator why would he need to assassinate political opponents? Don't dictators rig their elections so that is not necessary?
The USA gave support to neo nazis in Ukraine. That is a fact.
There are no free elections in Russia Putin will be dictator for life. He even dropped the charade of swapping the president and prime minister roles every 4 years and simply abolished the time limit, which coincidently trump thought was an excellent idea.
Stop lying and stop being stupid Ivanovic.
@cliff-mashburn saidYou're missing the point of WHY he did it by a long country mile.
@Mott-The-Hoople
Yeah I'm not going to bother putting the YT video of him on the news bragging about it to a bunch of news/political wheels.
No point to it, they'll just claim he means something else.
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@metal-brain saidIf you only rig elections, the people will notice and, sooner or later, rise up and kick you out. If you rig elections and suppress all dissent with murder and violence, people will still notice, but most won't dare say anything. Oderint dum metuant, and all that.
If Putin is a dictator why would he need to assassinate political opponents? Don't dictators rig their elections so that is not necessary?
In other words: to become dictator or to remain one for a short while, fraud suffices. For a long life as a dictator, you also need to reign through fear.
The USA gave support to neo nazis in Ukraine. That is a fact.
No, it is not.
@shallow-blue saidHow would you characterize Svoboda and Right Sector?
If you only rig elections, the people will notice and, sooner or later, rise up and kick you out. If you rig elections and suppress all dissent with murder and violence, people will still notice, but most won't dare say anything. Oderint dum metuant, and all that.
In other words: to become dictator or to remain one for a short while, fraud suffices. For a long ...[text shortened]... ear.The USA gave support to neo nazis in Ukraine. That is a fact.
No, it is not.
@shavixmir saidGovernment and state are not the same.
Didn't you write the title of this thread?
"US installed Neo-Nazi Government in Ukraine"
You really love to twist facts to suit your little rabbit hole, don't you?
A misquote is a misquote.
@shallow-blue saidHow will they notice when every legal challenge is thrown out of court?
If you only rig elections, the people will notice and, sooner or later, rise up and kick you out. If you rig elections and suppress all dissent with murder and violence, people will still notice, but most won't dare say anything. Oderint dum metuant, and all that.
In other words: to become dictator or to remain one for a short while, fraud suffices. For a long ...[text shortened]... ear.The USA gave support to neo nazis in Ukraine. That is a fact.
No, it is not.